There's a corner, and a piece of sky...

[erastes]

Words yesterday: 1500. Words today: 800.  W00T! 

This post is thoughtful, and I disagree with a hell of a lot of it. I don't deny her right to say it, but gah. Sanctimonious. much. I hope I've replied to her politely but I'm pretty miffed that she thinks she can remind us to be responsible. I would say that 99.99 of fandom is very much so. As I said in my reply fandom is self regulating, they disclaim, they cut, they flock, they do a lot of things that THEY DON'T NEED TO DO to protect people who might not like or should not read their fics.  And fandom is vocal too, if they see an unflocked post, or a post without warnings they will point this lack out - sometimes its a newbie and they just don't know.

Anyway, about the latest work: I've kinda of discovered that a way I've been working has become mega annoying.  It's like making a jigsaw. I seem unable to write in sequence at the moment.

Ever since I started writing I always skipped forward to write the stand out scenes, the ones that had given me the impetus to write the story in the first place. In Standish as you know I wrote the last scene very early on, and it was the same in Transgressions and there's a very unpleasant scene in Transgressions which I wrote and stood alone for a very long time until I worked out how we got there, and how we got away from there.  But this novella - aiming for about 20K - was causing me problems, partly because, as I've said before, my protag can't say 10 words when 100 will do and just progressing one chapter at a time was really annoying me. So I skipped forward and wrote a scene that will be "somewhere in the middle" then the last chapter, then the penultimate chapter....

So now all I have to do is fill in the gaps!  But it's worked.  I now know where I'm going and how I'm going to get there.  Anyone use this tactic??

In other news - Lucius is addicted to Springwatch. He particularly loves the Hen Harriers and Lili is sitting listening to Y Tu Mama Tambien right this moment.  She's Spanish, my sister imported her to England about six years ago and I never really considered it, and now she's listening to the Spanish with such attentiveness that I feel dreadfully guilty. No wonder the poor darling couldn't work me out for about six months, I should have learned Spanish to talk to her. *guilt guilt guilt*

Comments

[schmoo999.livejournal.com]

That post came up on my flist this morning and it just rubs me the wrong way. Movies and books are written about all kinds of things dark...seeing the trailer for the second Hostel movie brought to mind some of the sick and disturbing books I have read over the years.

Anyway I think anyone has the right to write and do what they want...then it is up to the reader or watcher to decide to dive in and with warnings if you get offended by something then that is your own fault..and should be blamed on the creator imo.
Freedom is to express yourself has to cover everything even the dark and disturbing because this world is not all fluffy rainbows and unicorns.

Sorry didn't mean to rant in your LJ..but seriously? Take responsibility for your own decisions not push that onto fandom.
Grrrr...

[erastes.livejournal.com]

Sweetest Pea, you know anyone can rant in my LJ at any time as long as it is polite!

I totally agree. I mentioned to her books and movies, but I should have got more involved - look at Manhunt on Playstation 2 - it's SNUFF films for gawds sake and you aren't just watching it, you are actually taking part - kill or be killed. Everyone threw their hands up in horror when it came out, but it sold in shedloads and lo and behold, there's a sequel on the horizon. Why is this more offensive than Draco/Lucius chan?

And freedom of speech DOES mean that you can shout Fire in a crowded cinema. The difference is that an intelligent man won't do it, because of the consequences he's likely to incur.

[schmoo999.livejournal.com]

You know I am always polite when ranting:)
I went and skimmed through her post..and it just the type of thing that rubs me wrong..like parents who want others to parent their kids instead of them.

I have loads of adult books and comics, some stuff very dark and horrible violent, same with DVDs. I have them locked away from my kids but I don't want someone telling me I can't have them or that the artists need not create them and to me that applies to fandom too...

anyway...going to go and search for dinner since my son is now fine! ♥

Is this polite? Um.

[wildestranger.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I kind of agree with you. What annoys me about so many of the posters (considerably more than the OP, it must be said) is how they talk about being aware that mainstream will not be supportive of our porn. Yes, they probably won't. One might also say that 'mainstream' is not supportive of homosexuality, feminism, or literature in general, or to put it more vaguely, 'people who think differently'. This does not give them any kind of moral highground.

The thing is, there is nothing wrong with porn. Or erotica. Or fanfiction. There might be some legal concerns fo the latter, but otherwise, really, nothing. And it bothers me that so many people in the fandom seem to think that there is, that it is something shameful. It might not be prudent to tell you friends or your boss about your fanfiction habit, but that has a lot more to do with the uncertain legal status of fanfiction, and the conservative/prejudiced/unthinking tastes of other people, who might have the assumption that one (anyone) has the right to dictate what is good and appropriate in art. Which they don't.

I particularly applaud your listing of unsafe books, which anybody can go and buy. This is something many people seem to forget when it comes to children and access to erotic writing.

[irreparable.livejournal.com]

This part of your comment made me snicker: after Graduation - as we don't have such things!

That's one of my pet peeves. Along with sweater for jumper, diaper for nappy, mom for mum, etc.

Also, the point about international laws being different in each country is one I think a lot of people forget - sometimes, they vary state to state or county to county as well. It's not something that can be made over with a blanket international law on X or Y, especially without taking cultural customs and the like into consideration. I really want to post that 'oh the huge manatee' macro, as I think it would be apropos, but I can't find it!

[irreparable.livejournal.com]

Oh wait, here it is! Oh the huge manatee. :D

[lee-rowan.livejournal.com]

Re jigsaws--I do this when a scene absolutely must be written and I know I'll lose it otherwise, but mostly I try to write start to finish. Fitting the story around a scene is a pain.

Try telling your kitty she's a gatita hermosa y bonita....

As for the other post... Well, (waving white flag) I'm sorry... I mostly agree with her. She did get carried away with her homily, but I also look at the incest/child sexual abuse issue from a medical standpoint. I dislike and avoid, almost any fic with a huge imbalance of power between sexual partners, particularly when it's adult/sub-adult. I'm not talking about a 20-year-old with a 16-year-old, I mean big, significant power differentials. As a licensed massage therapist I've dealt with many abuse survivors, some of them people who have spent 40+ years coping, often badly, with damage inflicted in their childhood. I've never met anyone who had such damage who did not have enormous, long-lasting personal troubles, and I've never seen anything to persuade me that people who squee about incest or teacher/student HP fics take the issue all that seriously.

I admit that I have this impression mostly because I have read only the squee, not the stories. I had a Snapelike teacher, and simply can't conceive of there being an attraction. (Obviously, many people do--which is okay, but while I don't feel I have the right to tell people not to write the stories, I can't find any reason to encourage them, either.) I also don't write fanfic in a book universe in which the writer is a) alive and b)still working in the universe, or c) has specifically requested particular types of fics not be written--as a courtesy to the writer. But that is my own personal code--it's do unto others, and I would mightily resent anyone doing it unto me.

I don't doubt that you, (and probably most of the other adults posting these themes on LJ) take reasonable care to limit the audience. But I also think your figure of 99.99 is overly optimistic. It isn't .01 percent of fandom writing the fics whose excruciatingly awful blurbs appear in Summary Executions. I think a lot of those kids are writing slash and other stuff mostly for the shock effect, not because they have thought deeply on the subject. (And who knows, some of them may be working out stuff that's happened to them. That may be the case in HP fics, too.) If you feel that she is urging writers take precautions that you already observe, then I would guess you are probably not the person she's addressing. If somebody rails against letting cats run free in the city, I don't take offense because my cats don't go out without my supervision.

Besides, if the issue is freedom of speech, it's only fair that someone who has a legitimate concern about controversial themes has the right to state her opinion on it. I found her definitions very interesting. If her credentials are what she claims, she does have a better-informed opinion than most of us. I don't have the strength to do the work she does--if I had to deal with abused kids every day, I would probably feel a lot more strongly about the issue than I already do.

[sheafrotherdon.livejournal.com]

I've seen a number of people ask a variation of the question 'who does heatherly think she's addressing?' since, as you point out, fandom does a generally superb job of tagging, warning, cutting etc etc. There's an enormous amount of self-policing done by readers and authors both in an effort to make fandom as accessible, safe, and enjoyable a place as it can be for as many people as possible.

But for me it was never a question of 'who's she talking to?' but 'on whose behalf is she speaking?' And - for reasons I articulated in a f-locked post earlier today that you should be able to see on your flist - she was speaking for me, which is what I appreciated - giving me a voice where I felt I hadn't been able to speak up. I should clarify that she gave me a voice NOT because I believe people should change something - I appreciate the headers, the cut tags, the warnings, my own ability to shape my friends' list, and there's nothing I'd ask people to do differently - but simply because she suggested that it's just not possible for some people to be able to make a clean distinction between fantasy and reality. I cannot see mention of abuse - in a header, in meta - without flinching. It's one of those hard middle places where I don't want people to change what they do, but i want them to hear my voice amid the clamor - and in the discussions I've seen, about freedom of thought and expression, the multiple ways in which survivors process their experience, the importance of artistry and experimentation, all of which I believe in, I *haven't* seen acknowledgement that there are many of us who navigate fandom unable to help from flinching despite the good work that everyone does, and that's the context in which we all live.

I've struggled with silence most of my life, and my only wish in all of this is to leave that behind. That's what spoke to me in what heatherly wrote - and there are other interpretations and other things to take from it, but for me it was simply someone knowing I was there.

Bookends

[semioticwarrior.livejournal.com]

The novel I'm currently subbing had the first and last scenes written in one sitting, and the middle filled in over the course of the past two years. That seems to be the way my mind works: I know where the characters are at the beginning, and where they end up--it's just how they get where they're going that's the tricky part. ::SIGH::

[viverra-libro.livejournal.com]

Respectfully, I'd point out that a great many incest/rape survivors do write fic involving rape, incest, and sex involving a large age-difference or power-differential between the parties. And they do it quite, quite well. If you'd like to see examples of survivors that write stories involving these issues that are gramatically well-written, very high 'porn content'/very explicit, very fantasized, and not obviously 'rape survivor stories', you could look at the current public posts (which address heatherly's post) and fiction (in memories) of ladycat777 and xanphibian. There are many, many other people on my flist that qualify for this category, but as they haven't discussed their status in public posts, I don't feel at liberty to mention them here.

No fictional children were harmed in the making of this fic...

[rwday.livejournal.com]

Well, you already know how I feel about that post. I don't even particularly like most chan, but there's nothing that gets my back up more than someone lecturing to me. I take real abuse very seriously, but you know, I just can't get too worked up about the long term consequences of Snape buggering Harry in the dungeon.

I also have serious problems with treating child sexual abuse as more serious than murder. It's okay for Voldemort to Avada Kedavra everyone under the sun - that doesn't demand any special level of sensitivity. But Fred and George having consensual incest has to be handled with kid gloves? Bah. Write what you want, read what you want and let other people do the same without getting in their faces about it.

Jigsaw. Can't do it. I've tried, but I am a very linear thinker and if I don't go in order, I don't go.

[rwday.livejournal.com]

I think a lot of those kids are writing slash and other stuff mostly for the shock effect, not because they have thought deeply on the subject

I suspect that if you're referring to the type of fic which ends up on the Summary Executions, you're right. But even if you are, so what? Kids do things for shock value - it's part of being kids and trying to make sense of the world, of their sexuality. Sometimes adult writers (and not just fanfic ones) do the same thing, and let's not even talk about the current slate of slasher films like the Saw series which make the horror I watched in the 1970's look like Disney flicks in comparison. I doubt much deep thought goes into deciding which body part would be the most disgusting to cut off next.

I guess I don't see any obligation on the part of a writer to handle any subject in a particular way, just to be true to the story we're trying to tell and tell it to the best of our ability. Sometimes over-the-top shock value is what the narrative demands, sometimes it's satire, sometimes it's sensitivity. That's the author's call, and if a reader doesn't care for a particular approach, they're free to put down the book or hit the back button.

Re: No fictional children were harmed in the making of this fic...

[ter369.livejournal.com]

I also have serious problems with treating child sexual abuse as more serious than murder.

I'm concerned with this, too.

I couldn't really articulate why until I was at the San Francisco Film Festival when Pedro Almodóvar premiered his film Kika, a dark comedy with his usual exploration of gender roles, sexuality, and role-playing. At the Q&A, a member of the audience said she was bothered that the film played a non-consensual sex scene for comedy. (I'd say rape, but it's the character's fantasy come to life, where she finds she doesn't like it at all in reality.) Almodóvar responded, "Did the serial murders in the film not bother you as well?"

All these crimes are serious issues, and potentially disturbing. It seems like murder in fiction is "just a story" for many people, while sexual crimes in fiction, or behavior beyond some people's standard norm, has a powerful link to their real world.

I do think that readers and viewers have a role in a story, to interpret the consequences of characters' actions -- whether they fall in love, or kill a dark lord -- and that it is often weak writing to tell us what it all means and what we should think about the events.

[nagasvoice.livejournal.com]

Interesting comments, really interesting link to that post. What I liked most over there, was the offer to start a community if there wasn't one out there already, and also being ready to advise writers who do want to consult current expertise on the problems involved. Whether or not someone with personal experience would agree with current accepted practice is another intriguing question that fanfic could explore, too...
On the Puzzle-Piece School of Writing, that's most often the main way that I work. Some notion hits me and then I see tag ends hanging out (like raveled fabric, really) which clearly belongs tied in with some other piece that's been sitting around for awhile, and then here's this other bit would fit too. I feel really lucky when I start to see a clearly marked missing bit that I can fill in, and when I can tie a bunch of things together to make a more linear narrative out of it. Sometimes when I'm shoving the bigger pieces together some of the smaller ones don't work as well and get trampled on. I've learned not to agonize too much over perfectly charming little things that no longer fit in any more; occasionally they pop up somewhere else, as just the right bit of business for another spot. Sometimes it's hard to decide what order to have different subplotlines fall into, and occasionally I realize it will be more economical if I rearrange different scenes into a different order. When I start smoothing out chapters into linear order, I often find I've got flashbacks and duplications that I don't need to do, and then I have continuity editing to do.
The big advantage of this method is how things pop up and surprise you. It doesn't want to be tidy and hew to the usual plotlines and get done quickly.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

Very glad son is ok!

and OMG is that a young Severus piccie I've missed? *Runs off to Leaky Cauldron*

[logophilos.livejournal.com]

I saw that post and had mixed feelings, since I'd made a plea on my own LJ for writers to be aware of the possible real world impact of what they write (though I addressed it to all writers, not just fannish). I think being responsible means being thoughtful - cuts, warnings, disclaimers, and posting the stuff where it's appropriate. I think a general statement somewhere that the author does not approve of real world abuse would not go amiss, but it's difficult to do that all the time and not sound like an utter prig.

However, I do think all writers - fannish or otherwise - should aware that their art and writing put on the internet will reach far more people than just their own limited circle. I think being aware, and thoughtful, is the most important thing. The same argument was made during the recent SGA race kerfuffle. We just need to think about what we write and the impact it can have. Writers *do* have great power - and that does require responsibility. It might be a cliche, but it's still true.

Re: Is this polite? Um.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

Absolutely - and really, surely the point is - rather than "protecting the kids" people should be more worried about pedophiles reading Dracochan.

Books, videos, porn on the internet, video games - a small minority of fics which - despite what a lot of people thing - is in a cult that very very few people know about after all - I didn't - neither does/did ANYONE I know in real life - have kiddie porn in them is very tiny in comparison. I think people inside fandom think that fandom is much more known about than it actually is.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

Graduation used to drive me BONKERS. Plus all the Glam Rock Siriuses at school... Just for starters! I once read a story where Harry was living (for some reason) "in the country" and there was a drought and it was a huge distance to the nearest town er... no..

And as he walked along a dusty track which was probably more like Texas than Dorset, he heard cicadas.

argh.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

great pic!

[schmoo999.livejournal.com]

Yes it is!!! I think I bounced in my rocker when I saw the pic:) I had to make an icon...and yes Nick is fine.

I am still trying to figure out how that happened to his arm. I think the horde was up to something with each other..hmmmm...

[sabethea.livejournal.com]

So now all I have to do is fill in the gaps! But it's worked. I now know where I'm going and how I'm going to get there. Anyone use this tactic??

YES! All the time! And everyone thinks I'm totally crazy. I'm not alone in this! Cue excessive exclamation points!

It works really well for me, too. I've completed three (unpublished) novels (okay, one's fanfic, but the same thing applies) that way, and it Just Works.

I also used to write essays in exams this way sometimes. So I'd write a bit, have inspiration for a bit that came later, and have to try and guess how many words I'd need in between to come back to it....

[liebesdammerung.livejournal.com]

Ick. That post was so self-righteous I ewanted to gag. Ew.

[ariadneelda.livejournal.com]

I found that post patronising and rather insulting. Quite insulting, actually. I don't need anyone to tell me how to think and how to be responsible. I thought your comment was excellent and I couldn't agree more with it.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

No need to wave white flag, hun - all opinions welcome here in debate!

I guess it rubbed me up the wrong way because of what you point out, she wasn't addressing me, and that sort of Nanny Knows Best post achieves nothing but attention for the poster. Anyone intelligent enough to read and appreciate it would already be doing most of what she said. It was all the "let's be responsible, guys" stuff that annoyed me - as if anyone deliberately being irresponsible - or any pedophiles - reading it was going to change their ways. I just think fantasy is fantasy. We could go mad trying to think of other people's feelings, look at United 93 - or even The Titanic for example.

And yes, I defend her right to her own opinions, certainly.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

Very much "I know best, now play nicely children"

Blerk.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

It's like... I have opinions, and I like expressing them, but I'd never have the bleeding cheek to preach that ANYONE should be doing stuff in a certain way - it just pissed me off.

*sigh*

[erastes.livejournal.com]

Yay! I'm glad it's not just me! I tend to get bored with my own writing when it's an "A to B" chapter or chapters and need to go and write the fun stuff!

[erastes.livejournal.com]

I agree with some of what she said, and as I said, she's welcome to say whatever she likes, but it was the tone I disliked; the Nanny tone and the silliness that people who have come to a Harry Potter fanfic site for example and are reading fic would not be clever enough to know that it was fantasy. Perhaps the dragons didn't give it away?

As for original, I feel more strongly - as RW Day said, it's the writers responsibility to write - not to worry about who one offends. I would say that everything offends on some level. God FORBID we ever get to the state where books have to have warnings - it's bad enough with American paperbacks that have the GENRE on the back...

[erastes.livejournal.com]

Im glad its not just me! It certainly works!

[erastes.livejournal.com]

yes, it was an interesting idea.

It's nice to see that other people use this jigsaw method!!

[lee-rowan.livejournal.com]

it's SNUFF films for gawds sake and you aren't just watching it, you are actually taking part - kill or be killed. Everyone threw their hands up in horror when it came out, but it sold in shedloads and lo and behold, there's a sequel on the horizon.

If we operate on the principle that something is fine and good as long as it makes money... I think that's a very dangerous position, and we can see the result of that thinking by looking at what the US is up to these days.

I was just listening to something about the 'extreme horror' film business on PBS this morning; apparently some gent who used to make slasher films, back in the days of cheesy special effects, is now waving red flags over the current crop because so much of it is essentially snuff porn and it's being marketed very heavily to the teen-20's males and now also females. He's concerned that continued exposure to and continual intensification of graphically illustrated brutality is going to deaden viewers' aversion to violence.

One commentator suggested that the leap in graphic violence was the expression of the 'shadow' that creates the violence overseas that we're not allowed to see on our news. I suppose it's possible--but I am more inclined to believe that the steady diet of violence and brutal role-playing in films and tv has created a generation that has fewer restraints against behavior like torture.

Re: shouting fire, the key word is 'intelligent.'

(btw, did you mean 'why is this less offensive than L/D chan?) Because I don't think anyone said it was...

[lee-rowan.livejournal.com]

Re the slasher pics--I believe quite a lot of thought does go into deciding what's most disgusting. This is big bizness, studios are striving to outdo each other in producing revolting images, and I am sure that apart from the box office take, no one considers or gives a damn about the possible social consequences. According to a PBS feature I heard today, they are still cutting some things out of the final print--but only those that are explicitly sexual as well as violent. Quote: "bathing in blood is ok, bathing in blood with nipples is not ok."

(If anyone attempts to tell me that using murder as a sexual stimulant is acceptable in his/her personal ethics, I am going to disagree in a very serious and fundamental way.)

It's interesting that so many people who are defending the HP underage/ incest stories automatically cite the prevalance of horrifically violent films and games as justification... because to me that's muddying the issue. Very few sane people would argue that chopping people to bits is acceptable behavior, but it is not unreasonable to argue that consensual sex play between children is relatively harmless. (Having grown up with 3 sibilings, I would argue that sometimes the power struggles between sibs can be every bit as intense as any adult conflict, but that's another topic.)

I think the automatic pairing of sex and violence is quite silly in many cases. When it comes to adults using children (and can we at least agree that term could apply to pre-pubescent individuals?) in a sexual way, it is both sex and violence.

Saying that the exploitation of imagery of extreme physical violence has anything to do with the validity of fanfic just doesn't parse for me.

[lee-rowan.livejournal.com]

Again, I think that if people are writing stuff in an intelligent and thoughtful way, those are probably not the people she was trying to reach--I got that impression from the way she very thorougly defined her terms before making her statement.

I do maintain that someone writing incest or underage power imbalance sex stories is dealing with serious issues and I believe that if one is going to write about serious issues, one has an obligation to one's readers to treat them seriously. One of my own books that features a suvivor of m/m youth-rape got a pre-publication vetting from a gay friend who's a social worker. I believe that treating such a serious issue as a casual romp is an insult to people who are dealing with the lifelong damage. And I'm not talking about satire or parody, I'm talking about anyone who sits down with the serious intention of writing a good story.

As far as the 'oh, it's just fanfic, it doesn't have to be accurate...' to me that's a weak excuse, the same as not bothering to look up the difference between 'discreet' and 'discrete.' Nobody has to read either story... asolutely true.

But I do believe that a writer has a responsibility to the reader and to the subject matter to present one with the other in an accurate and believable way. I don't necessarily expect anyone to agree with me on that issue, but I'm not likely to read anyone who isn't following that principle.

[lee-rowan.livejournal.com]

Well, I like to think I'm intelligent enough to apppreciate the ideas, but I found her definitions very interesting and learned a few new things.

Flight 93--god, the whole 911 profiteering infuriates me. I wish the survivors' loved ones had told the sensation-mongers that they'd be down their throats with a class-action suit if they made a film of it. Vultures.

And the 'nanny' attitude... When I know someone works with kids, I tend to cut 'em a little slack on that affect. Everyone I know who teaches pre-teens does have an irritating tendency to metaphorically bring their face down to where a kid's would be, and that's damned annoying when you're of equal stature. But most of them (two of them dear friends of mine) do not do it deliberately. She had good info, and I think creating a pool of professionals for writers to consult with is an excellent idea. An informed writer is going to write a better story, even if for reasons of plot or characterization she discards some or all of the pro's advice.

Personally, all the kid-lurve baffles me. I didn't even find kids sexually appealing when I was one--just fantasized about being an adult. (And, yes, wrote some of the worst Mary Sues you can imagine.)

[viverra-libro.livejournal.com]

This will have to be in two parts because it's too long -- sorry.

You seem to be articulating two ideas. One, that anyone writing a 'good story' has an obligation to treat rape/sexual assualt/incest/sex in which there's a big age/power disparity (let's just call those the Big Four) in a 'serious' manner. Because it's . . . insulting, to the survivors, not to do that. Right? And your second idea is that there are only two kinds of fiction: fiction that's full of gratuitous sex, not well-written and that doesn't deal with the Big Four in a realistic way; and the kind you write.

I'll deal with your second idea first. I think it would be pretty safe to bet that you haven't read much hard-core fanfic. You probably didn't read Pornish Pixies when it was in its heyday. You probably haven't read switchknife's work, or anything that either of the two people I pointed you to above have written. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you haven't. So. Guess what. There is a huge body of fanfication that is extremely sexually explicit, and deals with The Big Four, as well as most of the non-mainstream kinks, and the quality of writing is excellent. These people can write well enough to be published - some have - (yes, in print). This type of fanfiction makes no attempt to address the real-life issues associated with the activities contained therein. It's written in large part to facilitate getting off, as quickly and as often as possible. This is the kind of fiction that is the biggest target for condemnation: because it is so well-written, it can provoke a strong physical response in the reader - who may not be entirely comfortable with the fact that he or she is having such a response. And because there seems to be no "point" other than getting off, it seems gratuitous, not worthwhile, not easily justified.

I think that this type of writing is exactly who Heatherly was aiming her post at. Heatherly specifically went into detail about how real life isn't like a steamy sex scene between two actors. And talked about how victims might feel shamed by reading a story that trivialized an ordeal that they experienced.

-->on to second part

[viverra-libro.livejournal.com]

Now. To your second idea, that such things aren't responsible, because they could be insulting to suvivors of The Big Four.

What I think you missed in my earlier reply is this:

MANY of fhe people who write the type of fic I described above are members of The Big Four Survivor's Club.

The two individuals I pointed you to above are both survivors of rape and/or sexual abuse and/or incest. I shan't say which experienced what, since the details are not public knowledge. The fact that they are both survivors is. I am using them as examples, because they have made their histories public. There are many, many other women on my flist that are also survivors, and that write similar types of stories, but they have not made their histories public, so these two are just examples.

And again, these two people do NOT write their fic dealing with The Big Four in a realistic way. It is very, very fantasized, eroticized, and the trauma is not dealt with in a realistic way.

I would like to think that you, like Heatherly, had no idea that women who have survived The Big Four are writing about it in highly unrealistic and erotic fashion, that completely trivializes the trauma. I'd like to think that you, like Heatherly, would never knowingly tell a sexual abuse survivor how she ought to write about her trauma. But now that I've pointed it out to you, I'd like to know if that changes your mind.

And speaking as a member of The Big Four Survivor's Club, I feel pretty comfortable saying thank you, but we don't want your pity or your outrage over unrealistic fanfic insulting us. We've had plenty of realism already, thanks. What we would like is for you to understand that we are who you're criticizing when you say that fiction dealing with The Big Four in an unrealistic fashion is irresponsible. Us. The people who have lived through it. And you haven't. How do you think that makes us feel?

What we would also like is for you to have some compassion for us, and if you can't support us, then you could do us the most good by not making us feel uncomfortable and ashamed of what we want to read and write.


Note: (mostly for others reading this) I am not overlooking the fact that (1) there is no need for a fic to have a 'point' - getting off is perfectly fine; (2) not every survivor writes as a form of therapy; some do, some don't, and it's nobody's business why they're writing what they're writing. These topics are dealt with at length in the posts I directed you to earlier.

[lee-rowan.livejournal.com]

Hm.

1) You are making some enormous assumptions about me, what I have read or not read, what I choose to read, and my personal history. And in nearly every case, you are mistaken.

2) If you think Heatherly has a corner on condescension, you may not be aware that you're pretty good at it yourself.

Yes, I do think a good story requires a point and a purpose, even if that purpose is simply to get the reader or the writer off. I make no apologies for that belief. But I don't have the time--or, to be honest, the interest--in looking up the writers you mention. I don't say this as judgement, it's total lack of interest--there are millions of splendid books that I have never and will never read.

And I'm not going to get into the sort of amateur psychologizing that would go nowhere and end up in flames, but I'll suggest this: If you truly believe that people having the right to express their beliefs and opinions, it's only fair to extend that privilege to people whose opinions are not identical to yours.

[viverra-libro.livejournal.com]

If you'd care to clarify yourself, I'd be happy to listen and further consider your opinion. Responding with "I'm not going to exert myself" and "I have a right to my opinion" . . . well . . . that makes me think that you just . . . don't even care enough to think about it. I may come across as condescending - which certainly isn't my intention; try instead frustrated, hurt, generally betrayed, and defensive - but at least I showed you the courtesy of trying to explain my point of view, and expended considerable the time and effort to do so.

[irreparable.livejournal.com]

O_O

I had no idea that England's green countryside was in fact dusty and dry! /sarcasm. I weep for the future!

[katjak.livejournal.com]

Hmm. Thanks for the link. (Reading through people's journals after a break in LJ activity.)

My own fictions contain a lot of the so called forced seduction, and I like power play that borders on noncon. I don't generally like weepy rape scenes, but I do have one (unfinished) comic where a late-teenage prince is in love with his man-at-arms, and gets raped by him -- and does weep in the process.

When I think about the whole thing, I tend to first accept the artist's responsibility viewpoint, and then always reject it. I *do* know that I would love to see more depth of characters and their relationships than is usual in erotica. This usually means more intelligent handling of story themes and topics as well. However, it does not mean that the writer must display a specific agenda -- quite the opposite, actually -- just that being intelligent and enlightened makes for more interesting and powerful stories. Too much realism is actually a big turn-off. We are talking about entertainment. About escapism. And those pesky warnings about the subject matter sometimes seem so patronizing that I may not read the whole thing in the first place.

Another thing. While paedophilic fantasies have always been very distasteful to me, fantasies that depict teenagers having sex only became so when my younger siblings became of that age. Now I'm softening to it again. This makes me think that sometimes part of the vehemence against lolita fantasies might be created by the unwillingness to imagine your siblings/kids/students/patients/whoever having sex, or having anything to do with sexuality in fact -- whether it is consensual or not. It is easy to overextend one's protectiveness in this matter, to things and people who actually pose no danger to child safety at all.