A new start!

[erastes]

And by that I mean that (as most of you will already know, so no need for further comment!) I've closed my underlucius fandom journal and will now be here on a permanent basis.

It's scary.

Am writing a short story and my first completely (or so I thought) unlikeable, unredeemable character. However, I'm not as clever as I thought I was as when I read it out to my mother she said "oh - poor man, I feel really sorry for him." *headdesk*

However: Have a quandry. It's a character study. He's thinking the entire story and he sounds more intelligent than you'd give him credit for. Hmm. need to try and address that, but what I was wondering... Do untutored people sound like that in their own heads? Do you think in dialect? *ponders*

Comments

[quatorze.livejournal.com]

That's a tricky one... I'm not sure I could define it as thinking in dialect or something, because thoughts aren't always formulated in any particular language (although I know that sometimes I quite distinctly think in Finnish, sometimes in English).

However, there's this one thesis that's stuck in my head from the studying days: that the limits of your language are the limits of your world. Meaning that having sufficient language skills (vocabulary etc.) define the extent to which a person is able to define and explain and comprehend the phenomena around him. While I don't necessarily buy this 100%, I still think there's a lot of truth in it, too.

(I think I've heard this during my linguistics studies, and more particularly when we were discussing the importance of ensuring that everybody learns at least one language properly.)

[rwday.livejournal.com]

Even if the character might speak/think in a dialect, I'm not sure you'd want to write the whole story that way. It's hard enough reading the dialect bits in Gone with the Wind or Secret Garden, since so much of this story is interior, it would be almost unrelieved and quite difficult for you to write and most readers to read.

Besides, I don't think it's so much the dialect that's the problem as the vocabulary. Illiterate people are going to generally have a vocabularly limited to words necessary to function in daily life. Even those with poor educations (I'm thinking of my stepdaughter here - she barely scraped through high school and never reads anything) have limited ability to describe things fully and tend to use three small words when I'd use one larger one.

I had a similar problem with David who, like your character, was not stupid but had no real formal education and I had to be continually looking out that I didn't use concepts or references he'd have no way of knowing. It's tough.

I stand by the idea that it would be easier for you to give the character some level of education and slip that fact into his backstory than to rewrite the entire piece to make him sound less articulate. Though you'd probably learn a lot as a writer from doing that. Good luck, either way!

[enolabloodygay.livejournal.com]

If it helps, I know someone who had little or no formal education after the age of 11, struggles to read and write, yet is still highly articulate. As I also know someone who went through the education system till the age of 16 and she struggles with words of one syllable, I think it comes down to the innate intelligence of the character, not whether they are tutored or untutored.

continues to stalk

[sesptwd.livejournal.com]

I've always wished that I could read fic in a British accent--in my head. I can't.

It'd be great if you did a phone post, reading a snippet of one of your works.

[gehayi.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't write it in dialect. I think that you can communicate his intelligence through what he thinks, and his lack of education through his style of thinking. An uneducated person would probably use simple words, not flowery ones, for example. He might toss an "ain't" in there now and again, too.

Think, too, about the way that, say, Pratchett, shows character through speech and thought. Granny Weatherwax, for example. She's VERY smart. No one would question that. But at the same time, she's a woman who grew up and spent her life in the small town of Lancre. And that's reflected in her suspicion of foreigners and foreign ways, as well as her characteristic phrase, "I can't be having with this." That's not dialect, but it's definitely a back-country expression. And it says a lot about her.

See what I mean?

[erastes.livejournal.com]

Nod nod. Dialect wasn't really the word I meant, I suppose I meant what you say, that his language would be limited to his world, and considering he was raised by pigs, near enough, he'd be very limited.

But the thing is, I'm painting it from his own head, and it's not necessarily his thoughts.. it's more his perceptions of his world, which was completely skewed. But reader WILL think it's his thoughts, and hence the dilemma coz the piece is poetic and arty farty and he just wouldn't speak like that.

*shoots self*

Thanks!

Re: continues to stalk

[erastes.livejournal.com]

I have done two... but they were as the fandom persona who must not be named.

I'll try and do one and read something from Standish perhaps. I've been meaning to upload some voice files to the website too.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

Nodnod. I do. and it's annoying because they aren't really his thoughts, it's his perceptions, but as I said above people would think they were his thoughts.

Unless I did it third person... that might be better.

I should not be angsting this much over a 2K fic! (considering it's not even 1K yet!!)

[semioticwarrior.livejournal.com]

Everybody thinks in dialect, whether it's SRP (standard received pronunciation) or something more colorful. Unless they're made aware of it, it sounds normal to them--just like if you were to pop over to Los Angeles, you'd think you were surrounded by people with accents, when in (our) reality, you'd be the one with the accent.

It's a little different, though, in writing. Because people generally read and write in a standardized version of their language. So if a character thinks and speaks in a dialect different than standard written whathaveyou, it's going to pop out at the reader, with varying results. Some people like it, others find it irritating.

You might consider decorating your character's speech with flourishes that indicate regional dialect, but not cluttering that character's speech with so much regional color that it distracts the reader from the story while s/he tries to figure out what's actually being said.

I'm wondering about this unlikeable, unredeemable character. Is it the MC? And if so, why are you making him unredeemable? Perhaps his coming off as more than meets the eye is his way of telling you there's more to the story.

Good luck with your piece!

[erastes.livejournal.com]

Yes, and that's the problem. I want him to have these over blown ideas about his importance in the world... and I want to write it beautifully and HE'S SPOILING IT with his grubby hands.

*kicks him*

[erastes.livejournal.com]

It's a quandry, and no mistake. I'm considering changing it to 3rd person then I don't have to worry about the language...

Thanks, sweetie!

[erastes.livejournal.com]

Thank you! Yes, I didn't want to do it in dialect, because that irritates the hell out of me when I see it written down, Hagrid for example, or Dickon in secret garden! argh!

Well, he's not unredeemable, that was probably the wrong word, but he's an executioner and I wanted to make him thoroughly unlikeable - but am failing!

Thanks again, very helpful.

xxx

Re: continues to stalk

[sesptwd.livejournal.com]

the fandom persona who must not be named
I assumed as much.

I look fwd to hearing your voice reading your brilliant words.

[thistlerose.livejournal.com]

I deal with that question whenever I write children - which isn't often, to be honest, since I don't like children. I'd limit the dialect, because it's a pain in the ass to read. It might show up in dialogue, but for thoughts, I'd describe things using the vocabulary of your target audience, but with the character's limited scope. I hope that makes sense. :)

Anyway, I knows these aren't new digs, but welcome nonetheless. As much as I enjoyed your fandom thoughts, I'm looking forward to reading more about your RL pursuits.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

Thanks hun. I'm going to try doing it, and if I can't make it pretty, then I'm going to try and change it to 3rd person.

grrrr


Real life? *wibbles* I'd better get me one of them!

[thistlerose.livejournal.com]

You can do it. Think of...Scout in To Kill A Mockingbird. We totally got that she was a young girl and from the South, but I never wanted to choke her with her own accent.

I need to get a real life, too. *sigh*

[maidenform.livejournal.com]

Hmm. I really have to think about this one. I'm not sure. I think in the same way that I speak, so maybe other people do? I don't know.

[schmoo999.livejournal.com]

I love your mom:)

and yay for moving on! cause growth is good...especially in writing.

**hugs**

[erastes.livejournal.com]

heh. exactly. just the sort of thing a writer doesn't need, this sort of problem! I suppose if he didn't know the word for something he'd just use another.

Bah. It's annoying, I wanted it to be all poetic.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

I don't. *hits her*

Thanks hun!

xxx

[nagasvoice.livejournal.com]

The folks I have worke4d with who were minimally literate tended to give their spoken ideas in very direct terms, using simple words, but as with great kid's literature, they weren't necessarily simple ideas.
Sometimes they were quite subtle.
Often they'd mask it, too, so they didn't show up as too-clever compared to the people they worked with.
But it didn't happen often.
You'd get this effect from them maybe once or twice a month, not every other sentance.
That's tricky mix for somebody who's used to being able to stretch out for a lovely triple barrel latinate word that does the job right out of the box.
And yeah, they were really making cross-cultural allowances when they talked to me, because I couldn't hide the triple-barrel stuff even when I worked really hard at using simple language. My best efforts still showed that I had an "academic" background, just because of the way I contruct thought. The ability to tease something apart and run hypotheses in a very "if this, then this" manner was foreign to the way they would try something out.
"Hey, I thought if I cranked it over this way, it might catch better," is really abstract.
They can be really poetic, but it's not in a flowery way. It's more like a great stark photograph. Or a gut punch, maybe.

[chaos-rose.livejournal.com]

I think that there is sometimes a disjunct between how a person speaks and how they think. Ever had one of the "Well, it made better sense in my head!" moments?

I do think in dialect at times. I grew up in coastal New England, and that is my dominant dialect. However, time and my roving ways have completely erased my accent and added new regional dialects.

haven't checked f-list for a few days

[dubaiyan.livejournal.com]

Hurrah!!!!!

[FWIW I think in a mixture of languages, as I speak.]

Btw

[dubaiyan.livejournal.com]

*friends*

[erastes.livejournal.com]

That's interesting and just what I am aiming for. He's ignorant but he's not stupid, he's formed his own opinions on the world, even if they are completely wrong.

thank you!

[erastes.livejournal.com]

Thank you! I'd love to hear your accent!

Re: haven't checked f-list for a few days

[erastes.livejournal.com]

hee! You would!

and about time you friended, missus!

xxx