Not terrible good characters…

[erastes]

Pushing on with I Knew Him today. I was thinking about characters recently, having re-read “Nightwatch” for the umpteenth time, and the fact that the person who had recently fed back on I Knew Him had said (and she stressed that it wasn’t a bad thing) that she didn’t like the characters much. 

I suppose I’ve never written nice characters. Ambrose was possibly one of the “nicest” I’ve written, but he was a wet hen and his sole purpose was to grow up and grow a pair. I wouldn’t say he was particularly nice when he did – he was just mildly nicer than most other people in the book—apart from perhaps the priest.

Nightwatch – and I will never be able to lick its boots – and particularly Sam Vimes illustrates this for me. Because Sam is a “Good Guy” but he’s most certainly NOT a nice person. The best thing you can say about him is that he can rein in the darkest part of his psyche, just barely—keeping it locked up in chains—but it’s always there, sniffing for the least little opportunity to get off its leash. He’s self-deprecating to the nth degree, has an enormous chip on his shoulder and hates just about everyone in the world except his wife, Vetinari and a few watchmen that he could trust with his life (if not the tea money.) What terrifies me, and very probably what also terrified the Monks of History, is what on earth would Vimes had become if he hadn’t come under the very temporary good influence of “John Keel”? It doesn’t bear thinking about.

None of my characters are anywhere near that mind-crushingly brilliant, but I do like to show that they are human, and full of the foibles and idiocy that that implies (and you only have to be on the internet for two minutes to see that fact explored). I know what she meant, though – many writers write Good Chaps who are basically decent and might make mistakes but they need to be a bit heroic, otherwise they wouldn’t be heroes. I tend to like characters with a healthy dark streak. :D

Those who spring to mind:

Apropos of Nothing
Sam Vimes
Catelyn Stark
Harry Dresden
Severus Snape
Mario Santelli from the  Catch trap
Belimai Sykes from Wicked Gentlemen

I’m sure there are loads of others, but I can’t think of them right now. I hesitate to say “Aragorn” because people will jump on me and complain. How very dare I, indeed.

Do you have any multi-faceted morally ambiguous characters you can’t resist? Do tell!!

 

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Comments

[tiggothy.livejournal.com]

In answer to your question: yes, but I'm a bit crap at remembering the names of said morally ambiguous characters!

I say you should add Aragorn to your list. He's a wonderfully dark character. Between him & Old Man Willow, LOTR taught me not to read too late into the night... I'd say Gandalf isn't as lovely as lots of people think either - just thinking of how we first come across him in The Hobbit.

The first name which came to my mind though was Jonathan Graie. As he is at the end of Transgressions ;-)

I think the multi-faceted moral ambiguity is what's keeping me interested in my pirate story right now: I can't make them "good guys" because they have to behave a certain way else it's just not believable that they'd survive in the situation they're in... Yay!

[anderyn.livejournal.com]

I love me my Sam Vimes, I do, but I am also still a sucker for HEROES, with the capital H. I think it was early exposure to the Prisoner of Zenda and Tarzan (I was reading those at the age of three and four), but I still quiver for the morally upright gentleman who always does the Right Thing. Even when it hurts and probably is not the best thing to do, but it's Right.

[essayel.livejournal.com]

I agree with Tiggothy about Gandalf and both of you about Aragorn. There's a lot implied that Tolkien doesn't really go into.

Moral ambiguity covers a lot of ground. Heathcliffe, Mr Rochester. Ooh Justin Alastair, Duke of Avon is a big favourite! Long John Silver falls neatly into the grey middle. Would he have killed Jim or not? Francis Crawford of Lymond does reprehensible things for good reasons. Yes, Snape - I can't bear him, but I'll concede he had reasons for what he did.

I'm writing pirates too and my hero is turning out to be a naif little prig. Maybe he'll man up a bit in the second draft.

[aishabintjamil.livejournal.com]

I much prefer a character who has a dark streak to them. I just can't make myself really interested in heros who seems too perfect.

If you don't object to dipping into comics, Wolverine as written by Chris Claremont. (There are so many inconsistent versions, you really need to specify).

Gerald Tarrant from C. S. Friendman's Coldfire trilogy. She does a masterful job of keeping him ambiguous.

I haven't re-read it in years, but I'll confess a long-held fondness for Michael Moorcock's Elric of Melnibone.

I'm sure there are more I should be thinking of, but my brain is fuzzy tonight.

[lareinenoire.livejournal.com]

Seconding Francis Crawford of Lymond. Also, Nicholas de Fleury from Dunnett's House of Niccolò series and Dumas' Count of Monte-Cristo. :)

I'd like to add Tyrion Lannister to the ASOIAF list too, because he is brilliant! Although I'm so happy to see more love for Catelyn -- fandom in general seems to hate her, which I just do not get.

The gentleman in my icon, however, is mostly a jerk. ;)

[erastes.livejournal.com]

oo - yes - Long John Silver! The thing is that when I read the book as a kid I had real hero worhip for him, but when I read it again - quite recently I could see him exactly for what he was.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

Who is your icon?

Oh yes, the Count - perfect example! Don't know Crawford and Nicholas - I'm getting good reading suggestions thank you!

[lareinenoire.livejournal.com]

Oh, Dorothy Dunnett is one of my literary idols -- she's dense and plotty (sometimes too much so, IMHO, in the later Niccolò books, although I didn't mind it especially) and her characters are brilliantly infuriating.

The icon is Prince Hal and the line from Henry IV, Part II.

[essayel.livejournal.com]

Long John has to have been one of the very first anti-heros. He's cunning and venal and untrustworthy but has an incredible courage - especially bearing in mind that he's only got one leg, and no peg leg either. And he's loyal to his wife, and I feel like giving him the benefit of the doubt where topping young Hawkins is concerned.

Topping as in killing obviously. *sigh* there's a whole vocabulary I really should lose.

[essayel.livejournal.com]

Dense, plotty and polyglot? It helps to be multilingual because there are so many quotes from songs and literature of the period. I'm very ignorant and know I miss a lot of jokes.

Also Francis is canonically bisexual - there's a nice bit in one of the books where his friends are totting up how many members of one particular family he has slept with and come to the conclusion that it's all of them.

Prince Hall IS a jerk. "I know thee not, old man," has to be one of the cruellest lines anywhere.

[stevie-carroll.livejournal.com]

I do like my anti-heroes. Travis and Ross Poldark spring instantly to mind.

This morning I was pondering whether one of my characters had actually killed his brother: he had motive, he may have had opportunity (depending how I tweak the timeline), but would his desire for revenge on a personal matter have outweighed wanting to put off all the pesky tax and paperwork issues that he would have to deal with on his brother's death?

[stevie-carroll.livejournal.com]

I'm reading Flint and Silver at the moment, and enjoying it rather a lot. I should probably have reread Treasure Island first, though.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

I found myself doing a double take at the topping too. REALLY???? i went....

[lareinenoire.livejournal.com]

I did love the canonical bisexuality (Niccolò has some hints of it too; it must be a Dunnett Thing), and a good point about the multiple languages. I definitely didn't catch all the references.

It seems to me that most people who don't think Hal is a jerk haven't seen 2H4.

[lee-rowan.livejournal.com]

Oh, god, Lymond. Interesting character, but (speaking as a Scorpio, here) I got SO tired of his Dark Brooding Mysteriosity. One sensible ten-minute conversation with Philippa would have cut a whole book off that epic, and to my mind it would have been a good thing.

[essayel.livejournal.com]

Yes, I blame the lack of tea. A quiet afternoon and a pot of Earl Grey, once he had got back from Russia, and they'd have been sorted.

Mind you I like the six books. As an exercise in high camp melodrama I don't think it's ever been bettered.