critique and explosions and a meme

[erastes]

Ok - this is a problem I encountered in fandom, but I never thought I would find it in professional - and I stress the term - professional fiction land.  I am of the same mind as gehayi for not understanding why historical fiction - or historical romances can't be historically accurate. Go shoot us - everyone has their pet peeves, and mine (as you will know if you've read any of my reviews - although I throw my hands up RIGHT NOW before anyone points, that I know I've made mistakes in my stories) - is historical accuracy - no-one's perfect - but I TRY.

If someone posts a piece of fiction online - e.g. in the public domain - not friends locked, then it is, as far as I'm concerned, in the public domain and is available for praise or critique.  If I put a snippet on line, and I have many times, then I'll take the rough with the smooth.  And I have.  People point out historical inaccuracies - some a lot more serious than Ms Potts did with gehayi - or typos and I was GRATEFUL.

Thing is, there are writers who don't agree.  They don't want their mistakes pointed out, they don't want people to help them improve as writers. They want the small pond of their peers to squee and praise and tell them how great they are.  This is fanbrat behaviour imho. If you are big enough and ugly enough and have the cojones to write it and put it out for people to read, then you take the critique as well as the brownnosing.

And if someone points out flaws, you swallow your tears and anger (hell, we all have them) and you say "thank you very much, I appreciate it that you took the time to read and cared enough to comment"

and on a much nicer note  technosage Interviewed me!

1. Why do you write gay fiction?

One cock good. Two Cocks BETTER.

2. Name three authors who have influenced your writing.

Hmm. Influenced is probably too strong a word. I don't ever think that I'll ever be as good as the writers who I most adore. Austen, Eliot, Pratchett, Rowling (she helped me name characters, taught me cliffhangers and taught me to write the last chapter first)

3. If you could add one book to the mandatory curriculum for being a human, what would it be?

Irony: Not just a little bit like Iron by Erastes.
Seriously though.  TIME ENOUGH FOR LOVE by R A Heinlein. Read it. Live it. 

4. Where is your favorite place you've ever traveled, and why?

I've travelled all around the world and Venice is where I want to live. It's like a water colour that someone has spilled water on. It's divine.

5. Sunrise or sunset, why?

BOTH!  My house sits East West so I get the best of both worlds

1. Leave me a comment saying anything random, like your favorite lyric to your current favorite song. Or your favorite kind of sandwich. Something random. Whatever you like.
2. I respond by asking you five personal questions so I can get to know you better.
3. You WILL update your LJ with the answers to the questions.
4. You will include this explanation and offer to ask someone else in the post.
5. When others comment asking to be asked, you will ask them five questions.

Comments

[elisa-rolle.livejournal.com]

As Italian who lives thirty km from Venice and wroks daily in Venice and has passed 4 wonderful years of college in that city, I'm very proud that you point out the Old Lady as you dream place to live. elisa

Oh, snap!

[adventurat.livejournal.com]

Historical inaccuracy in all its guises was a big factor in my decision to step away away from reading Austenfic. (Haven't stopped writing it though.) Regency ladies with 2nd-millennium sensibilities, modern and American slang in the dialogue, characters called Lizzy and Darcy who bear otherwise no resemblance to Austen's creations... all these things announce to me that the author (well-intentioned as [usually] she may be) has no idea about Austen or her life or times, and sees little more in any of her works than the romance aspect.

[logophilos.livejournal.com]

Now you know why I will never submit anything to Torquere or ever get involved in that circle. I got bitten very early on by a couple of their prize authors pulling exactly the same tag team stunt on me in response to a solicited beta and I am *still* furious about it two years on.

Writers who can't take correction or advice? Not professionals, not worth wasting a second of my time or a penny of my money on.

I read that post of gehayi's, and the one in the comm that started it - that author was utterly out of line. So was the mod. They make their press look like a bunch of childish amateurs.

[lee-rowan.livejournal.com]

I don't understand why one would write historical fiction without doing some homework--though I enjoy Heyer's fluffbunny Regency stuff, and she doesn't take herself too seriously. To be fair--history is not taught very well in the US, and most popular films play so fast and loose that the majority of the reading/viewing public wouldn't recognize or appreciate the effort. And most of the folks who wannabe writers don't see why they should have to bother... it's only a story, right? The problem is that so many people accept the inaccuracies as fact.

[technosage.livejournal.com]

I love Venice, but I'm a Florence girl. The poignancy of rain-slicked marble, the taste of melon gelato, the family trattoria with the perfect Bolognese sauce... Ah, Italy.

I fear I'm not up for 5 more questions from everyone, but I'll take two!

Thanks for the answers. :)

[glowering.livejournal.com]

Ok then.

I've very much enjoyed listening to The Bandit Queen by the Decemberists today.

Also Regina Spektor's I Want To Sing may very well be the perfect love song.

Also I've started writing again which is so lovely.

[janedavitt.livejournal.com]

Sorry, but I disagree. First, I make no secret of the fact that I had a run in with Gehayi myself years back and from what I saw today she's as much of a pain in the bottom as she ever was. With that admitted bias out of the way, no matter who had made those comments I'd have been rolling my eyes.

That LJ is a social gathering, a chatting place with impromptu snips and sometimes excerpts from books. It is not the kind of place you rip someone to shreds for what you perceive to be (emphasis on that as it's by no means the case that Gehayi was even correct in her criticism) errors or flaws.

It just isn't.

Other places are. That community isn't.

Gehayi was confrontational, out of step, dogmatic and rude.

Some things don't change.

[janedavitt.livejournal.com]

Heyer took herself very seriously from the books I've read about her. She was meticulous in research and I think 'fluffbunny' is unwarranted although YMMV.

I once posted excerpts from Austen and Heyer and asked people to guess which was which with interesting results.

Alright then.

[bloodrebel333.livejournal.com]

Never interrupt your enemy when he's making a mistake.

[logophilos.livejournal.com]

Gehayi was confrontational, out of step, dogmatic and rude.

Part of being an professional is learning how to deal graciously with criticism, however it's delivered and however it's from. Ms Pott's was giving the standard response of any fanbrat - 'oh, but it's just meant to be fun!'. Those of us who like writing to be accurate as well as amusing, don't find it fun when the author takes the issue so lightly. If gehayi is wrong in her correction, then that should be pointed out, but attacking her for the *tone* of her correction is ridiculous.

I also wonder why you don't say this to gehayi's face. Her post is open to all comers.

[janedavitt.livejournal.com]

If you mean a post on her LJ, no thanks. And I posted on the comm in question but the original post had been frozen so I couldn't comment directly.

I think there's a big difference between giving con-crit or an opinion to a pro writer on a published work, and giving that level of criticism on a couple of hundred words intended to be nothing more than a way of keeping the comm moving along.

That comm is a social gathering for a relatively small number of people, a salon, if you like, and the person in question volunteered to run it for the day; a not inconsiderable amount of work and time involved. That level of criticism just isn't the norm there. Whatever goes elsewhere on LJ, for that comm this was unusual, unexpected, and, I maintain, out of place.

You disagree, fine; but that's my take on it.

[lee-rowan.livejournal.com]

I've heard too many people who know their historical stuff say that Heyer made things up (including the story that she sued another writer for using the expression "Cheltenham Tragedy" because she invented it) to take her writing as 100% accurate.

I'm not saying she didn't take her writing seriously. But she had a light touch in her Regency novels that allowed the reader to see that many of the situations were, at best, improbable (would it really be likely that The Grand Sophy could burst into a situation and reorganize everyone's lives for them, without somebody pulling her up short and telling her to butt out?) but still go along with the story. Even the characters are able, at times, to recognize that they are in preposterous situations (The Reluctant Widow, one of my favorites.) There's got to be a significant difference between Austen and Heyer, because I adore Heyer's Regencies as recreational reading and despite many attempts I've never been able to get past the first chapter of any of Austen's books. (My own shortcoming, I'm sure, but there it is.)

It's only the Regencies, though. Heyer's more modern stories, her mysteries, leave me cold for some reason, and I think it's because they don't have the lightheartedness. I've tried reading a few and can't really get into them either.

[janedavitt.livejournal.com]

(would it really be likely that The Grand Sophy could burst into a situation and reorganize everyone's lives for them, without somebody pulling her up short and telling her to butt out?)

Well, that's sort of the plot of Austen's 'Emma' :-)

I loathed the one contemporary Heyer I read (Barren Corn) and I'm not wild about her non-Regency historicals like The Great Roxhythe, but I adore the Regencies and I've read the detectives many times.

[lee-rowan.livejournal.com]

It may be a matter of timing, then--I disliked Charlotte MacLeod on first reading, and she's now one of my favorites.

[logophilos.livejournal.com]

I don't really care *where* the venue is. Responding to criticism in that way is childish. If she believed gehayi was being a troll, it would have been a good exercise in control to ignore her. You're missing my point - it's not whether she should have expected criticism of that kind in that place, it's how she responds to criticism full stop. Writers (and reviewers) are on view all the time. I, not part of that comm, have seen her reaction and gone, huh - okay, that's an author to avoid. If she felt strongly about it, she could have responded off list (yes, Gehayi could have made her comments in email too, and probably would have been well advised to do so). But now her 'brattishness' - not just in that post, but in the other one where she claims to be 'bullied' which, really, is such idiocy - is on show, and we now know how she will respond to crit.

If you mean a post on her LJ, no thanks

Then stop badmouthing her behind her back.

[janedavitt.livejournal.com]

Oh, I love her books! I was so sorry to find out she'd died a few years ago.

[janedavitt.livejournal.com]

Behind her back? In public posts including one on the comm where she made the comments and one on an LJ she has friended? How is that behind her back?

[lee-rowan.livejournal.com]

Same here, though the last two in the Sarah-Max series were falling off in quality. I wanted to see more of Balaclava College and the Rhyses.

[janedavitt.livejournal.com]

The Balloon Man was definitely sub-par but she wasn't well by then, I believe :-(

I loved the Jenny/Madoc ones.

[lyras.livejournal.com]

It's like a water colour that someone has spilled water on.

What a wonderful turn of phrase. *hearts*

[rwday.livejournal.com]

My god. What stupid wank. Gehayi pointed out an inaccuracy that bugged her and that's threatening behavior so the OP has to go to the mod? Please. That writer needs to grow a pair. And, as I said on Gehayi's LJ, a backbone.

Disgusting.

I'm skipping the meme because I figure you know all there is to know about me.

[rwday.livejournal.com]

If she believed gehayi was being a troll, it would have been a good exercise in control to ignore her.

Agreed. The author should have taken the higher ground. If she genuinely thought Gehayi had her facts wrong, she should have just ignored it. Or better, killed with kindness and thanked her. What she did instead was to come off as an Anne Rice sort of prima donna and she did neither herself nor Torquere any favors, IMO.

[logophilos.livejournal.com]

The mod is completing the circle of idiocy - but as I said above, I already formed an extremely low opinion of Torquere authors from similar behaviour years ago. This dogpiling on the 'enemies' of their friends is an extremely common trait among romance writers, and makes them all look like vicious cowards.

Unfortunately, judging by the extremely varied quality of the output, I suspect there's little more to being published by Torquere than submitting a spellchecked MS, so these people never actually learn what the hard grind of pro writing is like.

[rwday.livejournal.com]

I'm grateful to Torquere as they bought my first attempts at original fiction which gave me the encouragement I needed to seriously attempt a writing career, but yes, I agree with your assessment.

My rejection rate from Torquere was zero percent. I submitted 6 and sold 6. My rejection rate for the SF/fantasy publications I've submitted to probably averages upwards of 1 sale for 10-15 rejections, and believe me, a lot of those stories were way better than anything I ever submitted to Torquere. Some of those rejection slips came with fairly harsh criticism and those are the ones I value because they're NOT forms, a busy editor took the time to spell out what didn't work for her.

Even if I vehemently disagreed with their crit, I didn't argue with it, or respond at all. You just don't. You don't argue with rejection slips or reviews. You just smile and move on.

Sorry to ramble on, but Anne Rice and Laurel K. Hamilton aside, I really do expect published professionals not to act like BNFs on fanfic.net.

[lee-rowan.livejournal.com]

Summer tomatoes on good bread with lettuce, cheese, onion, soy-bacon bits, and sweet pickles. Go ahead, meme me!