erastes

In a word, yes.

(Note: while I was at said Penguicon, and I spoke to

theferrett there, in passing, I was not present for the Open Source Boob Project. Considering I was there with very staid husband, I think it would never have flown if we'd been anywhere near that conversation.)

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Good Lord.

*stunned*

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angrboda

Between that and their user-info... I've sort of decided that I don't think I like him much. I'm sure they think they're funny, but I'm not really smiling.

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Nod nod. That's why I couldn't decide whether it was tongue in cheek or not.

Hey - let's just step back into the 70's - won't that be fun?

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schmoo999.livejournal.com

All I can say over that post is wow..just wow..and I would not enjoy having random people coming up to me all day asking to touch my boobs.

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Of course, someone on the 4th page said that anyone who objected would likely be fat or ugly, anyway....

*headdesk*

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schmoo999.livejournal.com

OK...nice. Love the maturity level there.

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There's always one who demonstrates that there's more than one definition of "boob."

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Oh, but Penguicon is very fun. Let me see. We got there around eleven, to find some real-life friends talking to authors in the lobby. We registered and then checked out the dealer's room (a disappointment this year), hit a panel or two, went up to the con suite to get drinks and check out the munchies (also somewhat disappointing), um, went to a filk concert by Tom Smith, talked to people, went to more panels, got books signed, etc. Now, yes, there were people in costume (I was wearing my bodice myself), but it was not mandatory. There are room parties later in the evening, but they are usually not all that scary (and no groping at any *I* have been to!), and are mostly a bunch of people crammed into a hotel room talking and eating/drinking what the host has provided and possibly watching a video. (I assume that the private parties are more, um, intimate, or can be, but since I'm not one who's invited to those, I don't know.) As for the authors who are there, they have a green room to retreat to where they have munchies, peace and privacy from the fen, and a place to just chill out. (And Penguicon often has a masseuse, too. Mmmm. Neck/back rubs.) (As a part-time panelist, I've been to the green room. It's fun.)

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Sounds like you had a good time, but it still scares me rigid.

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I'm sorry to hear that. I only go to local sf/fantasy conventions and a few gaming ones, so we're all pretty geeky. It's definitely not full of groping and drinking unless you happen to be at a private room party that isn't in public con space. And even when there is drinking, I've never seen anyone get drunk. Not to say people don't, but I'm pretty staid.

And -- one thing that has always impressed me about sf cons -- I can wander the hotel corridors all by myself at three am and never feel as if I'm in danger. When else could you say that?

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It's not the groping that makes me scared it's the faery balls and the chippendales!

And your hotels aren't NORMALLY safe? eek!

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There aren't many faerie balls and chippendales at SF cons! And definitely not at any I've been to! I know some girls wear costumes, some guys do -- and of course it's fun if you WANT to and it's just lighthearted. Me, I had my RenFaire bodice and white blouse on, just 'cause.

Well, actually, I have no idea how safe or not hotels are at night, but since I am a blind little mouse who can't SEE, I do not often go anywhere by myself after dark. It was particularly freeing to be able to do so and feel as if I could just wander. (Particularly that night, after talking to Neil Gaiman for hours and then getting the BEST hug evah.)

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Oh, one more comment. If you read the ETAs and the threads, you will see that (a) they got little buttons so no one who wasn't wearing a button got asked for touches (after the first convo) AT ALL; (b) there was equal-opportunity groping of men's butts (and possibly other parts, but I wasn't there, so don't know how far THAT went!); (c) there was male/male and female/female touching, so it wasn't just a boys get off on women's anatomy thing.

Not that I'm defending it. Believe me. I would have been all freaked if anything like that had happened near me. Most of the cons have rules that only PG touching can occur in public con spaces (hugs, a kiss on the cheek, a pat on the back, a back rub) and anything beyond that has to go to one's hotel room or you CAN get tossed out on your buns.

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I didn't delve into all the wank, I just saw ferret's comment where he said there wasn't a reciprocal agreement. I don't mind if people want to do it to each other, and yes, I realise that it was all consensual, but ... well. You know me, I'm the least prudish person on the planet but why did there have to be groping in public anyway? Why not have it all for charity, that would have been less masturbatory.

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Well, I would have run far and fast the other way, and probably complained to the con chair. So they WOULD get kicked out on their keisters, because I think that goes WAY beyond the PG consentual touch allowed in the rules.

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The culture at some sci-fi cons is a lot looser and more open... humans trying to make different choices. It isn't necessarily bad. I'd think a butt-patting would be the equivalent for guys -- secondary sex characteristics. The inhibitions humans have programmed into ourselves probably isn't ideal.

OTOH...the fact that humans have managed to get sexuality so very screwed up means that the odds of getting a perv in the mix are unpleasantly high; I've met a few at cons, and telling them to back off does make one look uptight. Nothing's perfect.

And for myself? I'd wear a "no thanks" button on my personal parts. I'm tactile with people I trust, but I don't trust people I don't know and intimate touch is always reserved for my partner.

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I'm just baffled why this had to be done at all. It didn't seem at all to be creating a better world, it comes over as "can I cop a feel"

I don't think I could say, in public, what my badge would say.

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Sci-fi fandom is one place where geek-boys have a chance to meet women who aren't looking for jocks. You're a Heinlein fan, no? I don't know if RAH would have been in the tit-fest, but I wouldn't be surprised if he had. Isaac Asimov would have been right up there front & center--so to speak. It's not my thing at all - but some geek-girls would probably find it delightful to a) get the attention and b) be asked in a respectful manner, as opposed to groped in a theatre. Different strokes.

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are men going to say "no, you can't feel my cock

Some men would. Initiating touch is a power move; being touched is passive. I suspect my own disinclination would be as much about the power dynamic as the sexual one.

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oh yes, I was being general. A lot of men would. But I don't think many of these men would.

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(g) they wouldn't dare--not with a handful of boobie!

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can't resist: tit for tat.

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crawling-angel.livejournal.com

He could have summed it up in one word...Bitty, lol.

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Yes, that's exactly right. Add a Beavis and Butthead laugh and the image is perfect.

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villainslair.livejournal.com

Do you know what doesn't baffle me about this? It's so closely related to cinema and the world's perception of what's allowed and what's crossing the line. An R rated film can show female full-frontal, but not male full-frontal. (Hell, even soft core porn doesn't show that in its entirety.) So of course it's perfectly fine to go up and try to touch the female breast while a man "doesn't have any acceptable places to touch" or whatever. *rolls eyes* I think it's the hypocrisy that bothers me more than anything.

Oh, and I skimmed a few comments because I was curious as to the response, and one person brought up jealousy.

theferret said "The thing is, if it's going to cause jealousy, don't do it. It's never worth that." That's like saying, "promise you won't get offended if I say this" because hello? These are emotions, and there are no guarantees sometimes! You don't know whether it's going to cause jealousy or not, even if a person swears up and down that it won't. (Or maybe I know too many passive-aggressive people, but I still think there aren't any guarantees.)

I'm also with you on going back to kissing hands. The hopeless romantic in me associates that with pleasantries, and we need more of that in the world...less groping/grabbing of the boobage as my friend Jessie likes to say.

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I think it's just the boob grabbing itself that puts me off - it reminds me forcibly of those outtakes on "you've been framed" where everyone laughs at the little baby grabbing the tit for attention.

Hand kissing is divine.

*melty*

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norton-gale.livejournal.com

It reminds me of those icky guys who always want to give hugs. Though it's actually worse. *cringes*

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I saw a brilliant line somewhere on this where they said "I'm fat and ugly and it's never dissuaded anyone from grabbing my tits. Sadly."

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aunty_marion

I can't honestly say I'd go for that myself, but at FilKOntario last March, they had a sticker system (which has been used at the occasional UK con, too) for HUGS. Basically, a green sticker on your con badge meant "Yes, I'm huggable"; orange meant "I may be huggable, please ask first" and red meant "Don't hug me at all, please." And I quite like hugs (I didn't use to, but have gradually got used to them since being in (mainly filk) fandom).

But I don't think I'd want random people just ... feeling my tits. I think I'd want the reciprocal agreement too! (And no, I can't see many men agreeing to it!)

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welshbard.livejournal.com

I don't need to touch them (well, not all the time), but I'd like to be able to look at them (and the rest of the person) without people making me feel like a perv, especially when the person in question is presenting them for all to see. I like boobs. I love boobs. They are one of the cool things the Gods did, along with a long list of other things, like chocolate and warm sunny days.

The fascination with boobs is not just Peter Pan/never grew up ism. It's part of biological evolution. Certainly it can be a symptom extended adolescence, but there are other psychological components to it.

For me, I think that the world would be a better place if casual touch (groping boobs is not casual touch, even if the person says it's no big deal) was more acceptable. I'm part of a community (pagan) that is much more comfortable with casual touch than the societal norm, and it is a very healthy and comforting thing. I'd go crazy in the 'real' world, where any touch, other than a handshake, is considered a come-on. It's very interesting to observe outsiders observing those in my community when everyone starts hugging each other, including the straight men. They don't understand.

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fiona-glass.livejournal.com

Oh, for the love of God, hasn't the male perception of women got past 'can I touch your breasts' even after 40 years of feminism? :headveryhardondesk:

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slice-of-nick.livejournal.com

I don't find it that surprising that grown hetrosexual men think about touching breasts. I don't think that makes them stunted, just sexual. The touching, well it depends on the spirit in which it was done. The women were willing and those who weren't were respected. I'd suppose there is a certain amount of power in saying 'Yes, you may.'

All of this seems rather tame to me. Then again, I grew up in the Bay Area.

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lunalelle.livejournal.com

I'm glad I'm not the only one who shrugged and said, 'yeah, that sounds kind of nice.' There were buttons to indicate whether it was okay, and while there wasn't a set-up for it, there was some reciprocal stuff going on. *shrug*

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I don't find it surprising, I just find it childish and inappropriate considering the rules of the place they were doing it.

There is a power in saying "yes" but I also wonder about peer pressure too.

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rwday.livejournal.com

Several of the commenters on his original post expressed the same concern. One woman who was involved said that nobody felt coerced to participate, but unless she's psychic, she can't know that. And considering how many women are survivors of rape or abuse, anything that breaks down the concept of personal space and makes boob touching a norm worries me.

I'm not surprised that a straight guy likes boobs. But the whole tenor of that post (which I believe he's subsequently clarified and apologized for) said to me 'I don't care about the people these boobs are attached to - I just want to touch boobs.' That's turning women's bodies into objects, and that's not exactly revolutionary or new or appealing. Of course, I don't really like the Men without Pants party at Pennsic, either for much the same reason. IMO, disconnecting parts from the minds and personalities they belong to is not sexy.

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alex-beecroft.livejournal.com

The Open Source Swift Kick to the Balls Project (OSSKBP) http://misia.livejournal.com/1055120.html

On the other hand, if it was an equal opportunity arse touching thing I could be persuaded. There are some nice male derriers out there which it could be fun to give a quick fondle ;)

Edited Date: 2008-04-22 08:59 pm (UTC)

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*laughs* Yes: May I grope your boobs? Certainly: may I knee your nuts?

I agree with the reciprocal, but sheesh, do it in a more secluded place, too.

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dubaiyan.livejournal.com

"Lets get back to kissing hands"

:)

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Huzzah!

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adventurat.livejournal.com

enjae posted about this too. And I was thinking that it was more demonstrative of emotional maturity than an appreciation of the female form (or even just one aspect of the female form).

"nasty grabby boys with a breast-feeding fixation" about sums it up for me. Thank you for clarifying my thoughts for me! You'd get a sock in the nose from my powerful right just for being impertinent enough to ask.

When I was commenting to enjae's post, I was also trying to distill my thoughts about theferret's inference that the women's consent was disinterested and without motive, just as the idea for the Group Grope must have been (oh yes, very disinterested!). How self-serving! I'll bet there was at least one woman who consented for fear of what would happen if she refused. And perhaps she wished later that she had refused, because she felt cheapened and soiled by the experience.

Oh, and hand-kissing? Excellent suggestion!

Edited Date: 2008-04-22 10:44 pm (UTC)

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I have to say that I'll be interested in seeing the first court case where these consent buttons come into evidence!

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adventurat.livejournal.com

The button was to indicate that yes, you may ASK to feel my tits, I think, not yes you may FEEL my tits. Because, can you imagine?

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tharain.livejournal.com

I think it's all very "Dweeb proving his Loser Factor".

I'm skeeved.

::edite:: Also, I wonder: would he let me grope his crotch? In the name of openness? The Open Source Crotch Project?

No, I didn't think so.

Edited Date: 2008-04-23 03:54 am (UTC)

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If it had been touching faces, or kiss on the cheek, or hands or even a WALTZ I'd have applauded loudly - I'm all for physical contact in that way - but this just yells Butthead and Beavis.

And you can get your bippy he wouldn't.

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