Dwarf Index: 5ish

[erastes]

Sleepy, Dopey, Doc, Grumpy, Sneezy (and their cousins Worry and Sporky)

I am quite sure that everyone and his wife has linked to this (another moron who doesn’t think that gay women should be writing m/m) but in case you haven’t seen it, here you go. Comment 25 is where it all kicks off.

As Alex Beecroft said recently, why does no-one complain when women writers write about straight men? Charlie Cochrane attended a Romance Novelists Association chapter recently and met a gay man who was writing romance. Not Gay Romance. He said he’d get very annoyed if anyone said that’s all he should be writing.

At least women know what it’s like to be penetrated, know what it’s like to be in love with a man. I’m not doing the whole justification thing again, as frankly it’s all been said, and it’s getting old. I guess that every now and then there is bound to be this reaction as more and more gay men discover the genre. I know that I—and many of my fellow writers—get readers’ emails/letters, and as far as I can tell they are from gay men – I know mine are. i think what made me laugh most was saying that unless we grew a prostate we could never understand.  This assumes that men think with this gland and that F to M are obviously not real men. Headdesk.  I hope that Donald L Hardy’s book (and yes, he’s really really a real gay man) Lover’s Knot will put many of the foxes amongst the chickens because out of the four Running Press Books, his is the least sexual.  I had to point out today that he must BE DOING IT WRONG because somehow (GOD ALONE KNOWS HOW) his two gay male protagonists manage to fall in love without mentioning their prostates once! Bad Donald.

It’s been a long wearing day, had to get over to Dad’s for 8am and then go with him to take his Yorkie to the vet (bad teeth and infected tear duct) – they warned us that it would be a risky operation (I know they always have to say this, but it doesn’t stop anyone worrying) and a little extra because he had a slight heart murmur (he’s 12).

Anyway, long story short (won’t bore you with the six hour wait on tenterhooks) he made it through the operation and we brought him home and I’ve left Dad to look after the poor little tyke. He looks in a right state, really groggy and whining, his mouth must be very painful.  He’s got tablets to take (I wish they could have given him injections, as it’s not fair to force a dog to take a pill when his mouth is in such pain) but frankly, I’m more worried about him eating than I am about him taking his pills.  Dad is understandably in a flap about the pills he has to give him, with Alzheimer’s he can’t keep the instructions in his head, and every time he looks at them, it’s like he’s reading them afresh. If it wasn’t for the cats, I’d go over there and stay for a few days, so I’ll have to stay in daily contact.

I read somewhere on a blog somewhere recently that writers shouldn’t write about their personal lives—so pooh to that. It’d be a lot harder to deal with if I couldn’t share with readers.

So. Much. Wrong.

Alcohol now.

Comments

[sinick.livejournal.com]

TELL me that cover is a spoof!

Pretty please with ripped bodices on top!

[kcwarwick.livejournal.com]

Someone really should have told Richard Adams not to write 'Watership Down', because as far as I know, he isn't a rabbit.
I hope the little dog goes on OK.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

I think it is, can't find any reference to it online anywhere. It scared me!

And thanks!

[erastes.livejournal.com]

But they were straight rabbits - so maybe that's ok?

Thank you!

[crawling-angel.livejournal.com]

Poor Doogie and Dad. They could have dispensed one of those tablet administrators. Doogie probably just needs to sleep it off.

We're off to the vets with Douglas tomorrow (the stray that came to live with Gareth, Dave's son). He's peed blood last night so let's hope it's only a UTI.

Alcohol! \o/ Having a wee voddy atm in anticipation of curry.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

Could be cystitis - Lili had that recently with blood, stopped feeding dry food after anti-biotics and she's fine. *fingers crossed for you*

[kcwarwick.livejournal.com]

Actually, I had my suspicions about some of those rabbits...

[sleveen.livejournal.com]

I am always amused when Group The First decides to get offended because Group The Second is writing about Group The First's Thing - because Group The First are exercising squatters' rights over that Thing, dammit, and HOW DARE YOU TRIVIALISE THEIR THING AND GET GIRL COOTIES ALL OVER IT????

^__^

It takes me back to graduate school, where all we heard was political correctness and standpoint theory, viz., "you can't possibly understand the suffering of my people!" (Cue hand to forehead and Camille-like sighing.)

Utter bullshit. Until somebody patents romantic love between human beings, I'll write whatever the bloody hell I please. If I want to write a romance about an alien ship that crash-lands on the island of Newfoundland and the tentacled alien ambassador that falls in love with a human woman, then I will, and let Lovecraft cry foul from the grave if he likes.

I think people who bitch about such silliness need to be strung up by their thumbs and flogged with nettles for being such vapid, nauseating little princesses...

/rant

I am so glad doggie made it through. Doggies and kitties are precious and must be tended to. :)

[erastes.livejournal.com]

And cross species.

Big VEEg and Keehar, OTP

[xbeyondinsanex.livejournal.com]

Ooh, just read that and it made my blood boil. Not. Effing. Fair.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

It's something that is getting very very OLD, and many gay men (such as Teddy pig and Steve Berman) are treating as being as laughable as the rest of us.

I know I have a few gay males following this blog, I wish they'd speak up, though.

[mikeyidaho.livejournal.com]

ummm, but one simply and unwillingly must admit, there was ONE good point, the authors need honestly do 'some sort of' research, because longer I'm reading through pdfs & pdfs of m/m ''fiction'' (no offence, especially not
you very-well-writing-British girls), these writers seem to be creating some sort of fantastical characters living only and entirely in their books, what wouldn't be all that bad if they weren't all horribly similar and boring as hell (pathetic, coal black & snow white, oh-so-easy to get...).
But those are points of necessity you're making too all the time on 'Speak Its Name' if I noticed well - a proper research (in any type of fiction) regarding settings and everything else, credibility of character if not originality, some kind of queer historical conscience (little beyond the name Wilde, please) etc.etc.
I'm not saying it needs to be as educating as
Donald Strachey Mysteries and also not saying
it needs to be 'entirely credible', because for
such I do read Hollinghurst, Holleran, Edmund White, Picano
or Kramer (Isherwood, Vidal, Orton, Quentin Crisp :-)...) and that's all depressing enough (because somehow, hate to break it to you, but these AUTHORS are more or less
convinced that there is no such a thing called love possible between two men and other pleasantries regarding
homosexuals and NOT going to utter that sacred word -
yes - the charioteer, because that one is a maverick,
apropos that would be a title I would throw on that '25'person - not only female, but a lesbian, take that!)
SO one needs some kind of enlightenment and it rather
be good (and historical :-D or detective story) and as
you know very well, such authors (rather not to name) one can count on ones limbs, legs excluded...

Ok now, I know it's too long, personal & not very clear, but currently thinking more and more how to relate myself to the whole Queer 'Thing' (yes, I must) and also reading Kramer's 'Faggots' therefore depressed, frustrated and amazon packet with Transgressions/False Colors is still not here :-DDD...
~~~

[kittymay.livejournal.com]

I think I will out myself. I've just had to do it to my own mum and so I am really past caring about what anyone else thinks of me and aside from this, anyone who knows me on here knows this already.

I write m/m fiction, and I am a transsexual man. Yes, this means I was born a girl. Yes, indeed, it means I haven't got a prostate. But do I know what it 'means' to be a bloke? Yeah, as a matter of fact, I do, because in my head I've certainly been one all my life.
I've been out with blokes and had sex with them and everything, too *nods*
I'd love to know this sage's views on my life, and my right to pen romance between men.

Or perhaps that would make Mr Comment 25's head explode?

[silveronthetree.livejournal.com]

Saw the cover while surfing friends of friends and it made me crack up. I recognised the image from the back cover/stepback of this Stephanie Laurens romance (http://www.stephanielaurens.com/Cynsters/03ScandalsBride_Excerpt.htm). One of the few books I have disliked enough to take to a charity shop after reading. It must be a spoof.

[mikeyidaho.livejournal.com]

and I wanted to say on the first place
(and got *cough* somehow lost in the process) that he, as
a gay man, can feel slightly offended as many (female)
authors completely ignore 'the gay rights'question e.g.- sometimes everybody and everywhere is ok with 'the two' being gay, because, c'mon Mary, they are STILL not; ok-homo effect; ''I've never heard about anybody gay in my life'' (what's fine, more or less, in historicals or in a story from Sticks, Iowa, U.S.A, but not - for goodness fairy sake - in contemporary L.A.); complete ignorance of all the aspects of gay identity (girls seem to be mainly into I'm-gay-but-nobody-would-ever-say-so type and rather ignoring 'queens'), culture (Derek Jarman anyone?) etc.
Hell, I sometimes feel offended by some twatty cliches likes of - (the best one I've come across yet) ''all the gay men are divided on twinkies and suggar daddies, the age difference's not significant as long as a twink is always wearing a tiny tank top and cut-offs and a daddy suit ''...
I know I should go to GLBT fiction camp for those, and he
should as well (and no need to comment on m/m at all), but they don't have such good historicals, again :-D and sadly, they're not so e-booked...it's the problem of balance between romance and reality once again, yeah, basically like you said - and that's a very old story already...

[alex-beecroft.livejournal.com]

Eek! That cover scared me (though Dave Wolverton could probably write a good SW romance if he put his mind to it :) )

Good luck with the dog! Hope he gets better soon :)

[taylor-lochland.livejournal.com]

I should have known better than to go and read that comment. People telling other people what they can and can't do angers the hell out of me. :/ Your response rocked though, and I'm in awe over the scene reenactments. o_o It gives a newbie m/m writer like me something to aspire to...lol.

[sinick.livejournal.com]

My relief knows no bounds.

[lee-rowan.livejournal.com]

Or perhaps that would make Mr Comment 25's head explode?

One lives in hope.

[lee-rowan.livejournal.com]

Yes, some writers are doing a lousy job, but that's GOOD writing vs. BAD writing. That's a function of skill, not genitalia.

He's saying that women Should Not Be Allowed to write m/m at all. He seems to have an ambition to be the Queen of Censoralia.

If GP wants to complain about unrealistic notions (in a romance... hello? Romance is by definition a romanticized view of love relationships, no?) that's one thing. A bit silly, but I don't read a lot of m/f romance myself, for that same reason. I don't read yaoi, either, because rigid roles and girly boys don't do anything for me.

If this sour fellow wants to review some books, if he wants to list things that someone got really wrong... that's great. We might all learn something--though it's my guess that what is 'true' for a 20-something club kid may not be true at all for a 40-something gay man with settled home life, a partner, and an annoying annual prostate-check visit to his doctor. (No, I haven't put that in a book... yet. But gay men have prostates, ergo they have the same maintenance issues as any het man.) If he wants to throw tantrums that teh gurls are getting their cooties all over gay romance? Too bad. He doesn't have to read it.

I'm bi, well into my 10th year with my wife, and not exactly Miz Straight Girl exploiting teh poor gay boyz. I also have a long-time friend who's been with his partner for nearly a quarter-century, who betas my books. (He did say that Gentleman's Gentleman was more romantic than my age-of-sail stuff, but that wasn't a complaint.)

Nobody has the right to tell anybody what they may or may not write. That's not criticism, that's delusions of godhood.

[lee-rowan.livejournal.com]

Poor pup! I had to grind up my dog's pain pills with a spoon, toward the end, and squirt 'em in with a syringe. She bit me anyway, but more of it got into her.

If he can't eat regular dog food, mashed babyfood meat mixed with oatmeal might help.. he could just lap that up.

Hope he heals fast... we go in to get Cassie's stitches out early next week, and you'd never think she had major surgery 8 days ago. And terriers.. even the tiny terriers are incredibly tough. I'll bet you and your dad will be going bonkers trying to keep the poor little guy quiet.

[lee-rowan.livejournal.com]

Not too bright, either. I may say something is a terrible book (and have, more than once), but to have the presumption to order half the population to cease-and-desist writing something? Whoo-hoo!

My guess is Mr. G.P. has written something and is having trouble finding a publisher... so that must be someone else's fault, probably those pesky female writers.

Or maybe he just wants some attention. I'm getting to the point where I'll just say, "complain to my publisher," and ignore him.

[semioticwarrior.livejournal.com]

I can't even read arguments like that anymore. They raise my blood pressure.

WHY oh WHY doesn't anyone EVER say "a man can't write that"? HOW many male writers have written unbelievable females, and wonderful ones, without being questioned? Has anyone ever said, for instance "(openly gay man) Mark Cherry shouldn't be writing/producing 'Desperate Housewives,' because he has no idea what it's like to be a straight female housewife"? No! Never!

I'm sure men find badly written m/m as horrifying as I find badly written f/f by male authors, but...oh, for crying out loud, I can't even do this anymore. It's absurd.

[gehayi.livejournal.com]

I heartily agree. The guys who object are always fussing about women writing about gay men. Straight, bi or gay men writing about gay women? They don't even raise the issue. By implication, men writing about women is perfectly normal...and why would anyone object to that?

(Which is not to say that anyone should object. I just resent the double standard. If you're going to object to one, you'd better object to both--or explain to me why one is so offensive but the other is not.)

[kittymay.livejournal.com]

I liked *your* comment ; )

[erastes.livejournal.com]

Well exactly, I get sick of having to point out over and over and over again these kind of point. Do I have to have four legs and a dick the size of a drainpipe to write about a horse?

He hasn't eaten anything yet, according to Dad, and I may have to go over again today. I'm less concerned about the pills (he's almost impossible to pill) than I am about him eating.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

Thanks, It becomes easier to remain calm because I'm getting to the stage where I simply sigh and say "oh dear, here we go again"

My re-enacting guy is very sweet, he hoovers up my books and writes to me regularly

[erastes.livejournal.com]

I've sent Dad out to get some minced beef, he's bound to eat that, he gets it rarely, and Dad can blend it into a pappy state. I'm less worried the pills than I am about him eating. He's generally pretty tough but he's always been a picky eater.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

I agree with Lee, this is a case of good writing vs bad writing. The same people who are writing appalling chicks with dicks and haven't inserted anything into their anuses since their mothers took their temperatures would write appallingly badly researched sci-fi, or any genre they were into. In the same way that those of us who care research for hour about buttons and the postal service in 1820, we go to some lengths to make sure we try and get the male viewpoint as right as we can.

Most (not all) m/m writers come from fanfic and that is prolific with bad writers. All I can say is that when I was writing Potter-fic, I spent every bit as long researching the canon as I do now, researching real life.

But then, in its favour, romance by definition and by the body of work in existence (I mean het romance here) isn't very realistic is it?

[erastes.livejournal.com]

Thanks Alex hoping he eats today. As for the book, I was actually disappointed it didn't exist.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

What's interesting in gay fiction is that these stereotypes are rarely written. You see them more often on TV and films, but gay men in books generally seem to be just normal looking guys.

[alex-beecroft.livejournal.com]

I would like to read a romance between young jedi (I'd like to write it!) but just not with that cover! :)

I wonder how much of the objection to women writing m/m fiction comes from a desire to deny that gay men and women have anything in common. (Like the tendency to fall in love with men, and the history of oppression.) It's a kind of 'we're not like women because we're MEN!' An attempt to be accepted by men as fellow manly creatures (with the privilege thereof), and not to be dragged down by associating with those second rate creatures, women.

[mikeyidaho.livejournal.com]

Yes, I agree with you (how can I not), that's exactly (my) problem, I've never read any m/f romance novel so I shouldn't be disappointed if the m/m ones are often unreal, that's how we want them to the certain extent
after all. Just many of these writers don't seem to be able to write well whatever it is they would be writing.
I don't think it's important what G.P.person thinks,
because he's making plainly stupid and offensive points, not only mysogynic but also strongly homophobic after all, as if Marcel Proust for example wasn't able to portray any female or 'straight' male character properly, because he was neither, more importantly what to do to improve a quality of m/m fiction generally? (Josh Lanyon has written quite a lot and well on this theme too...)

[gehayi.livejournal.com]

*sighs* I meant, bravo, Lee. This is why I should not post in the wee small hours of the night. I'm sorry.

[lee-rowan.livejournal.com]

er.. I'm Lee. Alex actually has a husband, which gives her an in-house consultant on 'how does that feel...?"

[lee-rowan.livejournal.com]

Thanks. But I'm almost at the point where it seems to make more sense to ignore these whiners... how many different ways are there to say please stop being a jackass?

[lee-rowan.livejournal.com]

I don't like a lot of m/f romance, but Georgette Heyer's books are fun (except for "Regency Buck," who should've been neutered.) She's good at period stuff and has a humorous touch.

[blkandwhtcat.livejournal.com]

I think that "Gay Pride" is full of shit. And you can read why here -

http://blkandwhtcat.livejournal.com/3668.html