erastes

FOUR THOUSAND POUNDS?! ARE THEY MAD?

*swears in Huttese at the greedy thieves at UEA*

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... that's a pretty standard fee. A course in Germany I know of offers to teach you "all kinds of writing", runs over three years and comes out at somewhere around 4k Euro. And churns out *shit* writers by the hundreds. Can't mention the name, they call it libel, I call it trigger-happy lawyers.

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In America, you'd pay maybe four thousand dollars to attend the prestigious Clarion Workshop, which is basically a six-week summer course, taught by the big names in the field, in writing various aspects of science fiction and fantasy.

If you just wanted to take a creative writing course for adults at one of the local colleges in my home town, you'd pay about 150 to 300 dollars, depending on the course and whether or not you were a resident of the town. That's not cheap either, but it's a hell of a lot better than four thousand.

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Clarion 2006 costs were $1320 fees and about $1200 housing, so even with food, I think that would be less than $4000.

I don't think most of the local creative writing classes are worth the money, frankly, as they're (in my experience at least) mostly taught by people who make a living teaching creative writing, not actually WRITING.

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You're forgetting transportation to get there and back. I think that, added to the fees, housing and food, would probably bring the Clarion costs to around $4000.

I don't think most of the local creative writing classes are worth the money, frankly, as they're (in my experience at least) mostly taught by people who make a living teaching creative writing, not actually WRITING.

Agreed in spades.

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Oh, right, if you fly. I drive routinely to Ohio to visit my father and Michigan is just another few hours beyond, so I would drive it, crashing at his house for the night, so my total transportation costs would probably be $300 or less.

Those creative writign classes remind me of all those 'how to write' books written by people who have only written 'how to write' books. Big Effing Rip-offs.

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I don't think most of the local creative writing classes are worth the money, frankly, as they're (in my experience at least) mostly taught by people who make a living teaching creative writing, not actually WRITING.

Well, yes and no. I started a small creative writing business with a few friends. Most of us have literature degrees, and/or have read insane amounts of fiction. We are published, as reviewers, screenplay writers, novelists and poets. We do not make a living out of writing (small print runs, genre writing that does not pay a year's rent, or free publishign because nobody pays for poetry or reviews) - but even so, we know a lot about writing, and teachign writing is a different skill set to writing. Many writers are hermits. Good teachers only have to spot problems in a text, and help the writer realize stuff about her/himself. Most of us have been there, we believe there are shortcuts to some of the painful experiences (like vanity press) and we believe we can help.

Living off either? Very difficult. I'm glad I have a career. Still, I love teaching.

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Um. I said 'most' and 'in my experience'. Of course there are good small creative writing classes. I am a former English teacher, though, and I have to say that a lot of the pedagogical techniques I was encouraged to use are NOT good practice for writing if you want to be published (for example, encouraging 'said bookisms')

I've known more than a few established pro writers who failed creative writing classes at various points in their lives. Your business sounds great, but I would suggest for people who don't have access to something like that, a writing group can go a long way towards helping beginning writers avoid painful experiences and it doesn't usually cost much.

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Hm.... I am not convinced about the quality of adult education workshops. I've seen a few, and they are dumbed down to accomodate pensioners writing about how the world should be. Nothing against that, but real tuition does not happen, in my experience, in these courses. But that's me, the elitist bitch. :)

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I've taken a few adult ed workshops (in creative writing and in other subjects), and I agree with you 150%.

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yes, but is that 4k euro a year?? for TWO semesters, six hours a week?

or over the 3 years?

I'm shocked.

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Over the three years. Course is done through letters. Youget "personal" coaching. I know for a fact that that academy has very strict guidelines for the coaches. In essence, they are not allowed to make you feel bad about your writing, not establish personal contact (like, phone or meeting) and you get massively penalized if you break the rules. Bastards. I read some of their "assessments" of one of my writing pupils. If those bitches had been honest with her, she could have saved 5 years of stupid mistakes that kept her from publishing. What a waste of space and money.

(Yes, the other person is my other LJ)

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... what kind of tuition are you after, anyway? I have a few experiences with writing courses. What do you want to learn? :)

And - yes, there's something like an "author's institute" in Germany, which required you to stufy for 3 years, full time, with something like 70 places per year. I cried my eyes out that I couldn't afford even thinking about it. Still, I'm a published author now, several times over, genre literature, but I'm technically pretty good, I'd wager (hah, my ego is back). What do you reckon you need for the next step? :)

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I just wanted to learn. I don't know nuffin'. But I'm not paying that.

I guess I'll just have to continue to learn as I go! I supposed having someone edit your books professionally is as good as a course, and a hell of a lot cheaper. e.g. free!!

*G*

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Hmmm. Yes. Professional editors can be awesome teachers. The main thing I got was from a writer's circle that gave as good as it got. Including peple telling me my last chapter sucked, or my English wasn't up to writing a story/novel in. But mainly, they were supportive, critical, and lots had literature degrees. It works. I still get feedback and feedback in return. It has made lots of books much better, and got us from "wannabes" to published, almost all of us, with a few execption that had nothign to do with craft or talent.

It's a quest, it requires all you got, but it's worth it. At the right moment, at the right time, you'll meet somebody who can give you the next pointer. Probably for free - or a different price than money. That was what hapened to me and many friends. You don't need to get a mortgage to have somebody tell you anything about writing.

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dubaiyan.livejournal.com

I looked into that too. Standard fee, so decided to study something less waffly for the same outlay...

Anyway no need for you to take CW classes; you could teach 'em instead!!

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And really, when you come down to it, all the MA DOES is (perhaps) make it easier to find an agent.

I'd rather just send an agent £4K with the query letter.

*G*

Aw thanks. I'd be all right as long as I didn't have to explain passive voices or showing and telling....

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ter369.livejournal.com

And really, when you come down to it, all the MA DOES is (perhaps) make it easier to find an agent.

Maybe if you're writing literary fiction (no genre category), or if you write fiction regarding a field in which you are educated/experienced (i.e., rocket science, mathematics, veterinary science, etc.) Then the writer's degree is a marketing hook. (I have an M.A. and write about the field of my coursework, but my agent wasn't interested in that. His interest is if he knows editors who are currently looking for that kind of manuscript.)

Agents want to represent authors whose books they can sell. That can mean one's writing is technically done well and entertaining, but the agent still needs to connect with it as something they are a match for pitching to publishers.

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Absolutely, I am much more of the opinion that if the agent likes your writing then they are going to see you, rather than be at ALL impressed with doughy writing and whatever certificate you can produce.

But then, it is said in some places that mentioning a prestigious MA like this one in your query letter is more likely to get your sample read.

I shall stick to my writing and strive to improve by myself.

nod.

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Oh, so that's UAE. Got it. Now, do you get a degree after you finish? Because honestly, $8,000 a year for grad school tuition isn't unheard of. Most people here would probably use student loans and financial aid to pay for it.

Hey - I've got an idea. I'll promise to write more Snucius - say two
Snuciuses every week, and you send me money? email to
imnotcassieclaire@ripyouoff.co.uk

Bwahahaha! No, no, sweetie. You should say 'I'll promise to PLAGIARIZE more Snucius. *snorts*

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Good idea! Why bother to be original?

And really? 8 grand for a course that has one class a week?

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If you get an actual degree out of it, not just a certificate. I can't think of a degree-granting program here that meets so infrequently, but our educational systems are different.

When I go back to grad school once Ellen graduates, I fully expect to pay between $5 and $8k a year for 2 to 3 years. If I could get a degree working one evening a week for that same money or less, I'd be happy. Now, in this case, because you don't really need this program to advance in your career, I agree that it's a lot of money.

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asphodeline.livejournal.com

At that price you could almost self-publish! If I had the money I'd pay for some of your Snucius :D

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£1000 and I'm all yours.

*evil grin*

You are right, it's a bloody rip off.

And why do people think that authors are so wealthy? I wouldn't even get a loan to do that, or ask my parents for a loan or anything, it's taking advantage of people, and imho is no better than the Preditors.

/rant

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aunty_marion

Crumbs! I thought I was paying through the nose for my course! And that was only £420 + VAT + exam fee (and the Advanced one, if I've got in, *wibble*, is 'only' £380 + VAT).

The problem is, for an MA in Creative Writing, a lot of people have already done (say) an English BA course at Uni for which they had a student grant/loan, and therefore think little of getting themselves £4k more into debt for the MA. If it were £1000, I'd say dig into your savings and go for it, but £4k is a bit much to do from scratch.

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Shocking, isn't it? REally bloody shocking. It's not even anywhere near a full time course, either, so how they get off charging it when they charge the same for a degree in Chemistry, over 3 Terms, I really don't know.

RIP OFF.

If it had been a grand I would have considered it. Savings? what savings? But then, by NEXT year, I could have that saved up.

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maidenform.livejournal.com

...

WHAT

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