Two Interesting Discussions

[erastes]

1. Gehayi has a great discussion about YA Paranormals and asks ten very pertinent questions about the issues within them that seem to be becoming worrying tropes. Go and read.

2. There’s been an interesting discussion on one of the author’s groups I belong to. It’s about a well-oiled subject which is brought up from time to time and that’s the usage of slang/coarse/”insulting” words for genitalia to describe genitalia. ETA: That being said – some authors simply do not understand the difference between A THEORY and ETYMOLOGY. Yes, the word cunt MAY have come from the goddess Cunti, but unless there’s a link between the orient and the germanic base of our word – then it’s NOT etymology!!

Some of the discussion focussed on the point that one writer was making that she didn’t think that male terms for genitalia were used to insult people as much as female terms were. I have to disagree there – insults such as prick, knob, plonker, shaft, dick, cock, knobhead, and many many others have been used for as long as there has been language to insult.

But what I’ve been thinking of in the past day or so is the reason WHY people use over-flowery epithets, or indeed any epithets at all.  Don’t get me wrong, I’ve used them, often verging on the purple, and have been rightly chastised for it. I tend to keep a tight rein on myself these days, and will call a cock a cock or a hole a hole/entrance etc rather than risking anything more pseudo flowery. 

What I hate to see (and this is most obvious when you get one of those “bumper books of gay porn”) is everyone using the same words—despite who or where or when they might be.  Onery marines will use exactly the same terminology as college freshmen once the clothes are strewn and I wonder if that’s because the authors watch a lot of porn and think that everyone does actually talk like that. It’s a bit like Georgette Heyer, whose characters ALL use the same highly suspect slang whether they are well bred duchesses, men who have been out of the country for ten years or servants.

I think you should consider your character when you come to these words, (obviously, it all depends on which POV you are in) and think hard about the type of words he would use when describing what he’s doing/feeling. The worst thing you can do, imho – ymmv, is to shy away from calling a cock a cock because it offends you. And that’s the feeling I get (more particularly when writers are writing about female genitalia perhaps) they hate the C word so they can’t use it – even if it’s EXACTLY what the character would say. Some guy from the streets with a penchant for gang rape is hardly likely to say “I felt up her sex and slid my member into her hidden place” after all – is he?

A good example is Alex Beecroft’s Shining in the Sun. She doesn’t swear like a docker, but she’s more than aware that some (not all, before you all jump on me and defend the yoof of today) young men use “fuck” with the same inattention as “you know” and the characters in her book swear a lot.

When I was in Ireland, nearly everyone I met there used “fucking” as an obligatory adjective for nearly every single word. I don’t think for one minute they knew they were doing it. It wasn’t for shock value, like some kids do, it has just become part of the language. When my mother pointed out to my boyfriend that he used the word before almost every single noun, he was amazed, and started listening to himself. For a week or so he became effectively mute in my mother’s presence, which was hilarious to watch.

When you write historicals, you need to consider even more. Not only do you have to try and use words that were used at the time, to the best of your ability, but (particularly in Britain) you have to consider status and class (not necessarily the same thing) – the age of the character, the mind set of the character etc etc. Also who is doing what to whom! A man in bed for the first time with a young lady who he has carefully seduced isn’t likely to use the same vocabulary as he would shagging a lieutenant he’s been regularly bedding for a year. But sad to say, I do see the whole “i’ll fuck you and you’ll like it, you bitch” coming up, no matter who is doing what to whom and when.

and on an entirely unrelated note: MGS: Peacewalker screencap. (a game I shall never own, I guess if it never comes to PS3) but hubba hubba. Snake x 4. That’s a writing bunny, right there.

Comments

[baritonejeff.livejournal.com]

EXCELLENT!

[erastes.livejournal.com]

Admit it, it was the hunky men with guns, wasn't it?

[baritonejeff.livejournal.com]

LOL!

No, actually it was your typically lucid explanation of your spot on thoughts regarding a topic with which I am currently grappling (in my head, still, not on paper yet.)

[beckyblack]

(obviously, it all depends on which POV you are in)

Heh, you sound like me. Almost any answer I give to a question about writing it "well, it depends on POV." :D The story I'm working on right now one of the characters is much swearier than the other, but even with the guy who doesn't swear as much the things he'll think in his head are often stronger than words he'll generally use aloud.

It's interesting about historical swearing and trying to use the words used at the time. It reminds me of something I read or heard about the show Deadwood. Now that has a LOT of swearing. After you watch an episode of that the Sopranos seems like Sesame Street. It's set in the Old West, but the swearing is modern useage. (Old words, but used in modern style.)

The interesting thing is they tried writing it with swearing correct for the period and very quickly realised it didn't work. Not only did it apparently make everyone sound like Yosemite Sam, it didn't feel like swearing, because it doesn't matter how much they tell us "this was a really strong swear word back then!" if the person hearing it doesn't have the same emotional reaction to it as to the words they've grown up knowing are the naughty words.

So anyway, the swearing in Deadwood is deliberately anachronistic for that reason, it's the only way to be effective. They made a trade off between authenticity and effectiveness.

I found it kind of funny that the warning for Shining in the Sun advised of lots of swearing. That must be a lot in American terms then, because I barely noticed it! :D

[kcwarwick.livejournal.com]

I think it's an excellent point that sometimes the correct word just sounds so odd to modern ears that it totally destroys the atmosphere. This is the really tricky thing with historical dialogue, making it authentic without being so jarring that it alienates the reader. With Elizabethan dialogue the problem is even worse, because it can depend on how much Shakespeare your reader is familiar with!
On another but not entirely unrelated matter, on Radio 4 this Thursday there is a programme about 18th century transcripts of statements from the Old Bailey. I doubt whether the word 'cock' will appear in this, being Radio 4, but one can but hope.

[lee-rowan.livejournal.com]

"He put his yard into my fundament" as a graphic description of unwanted sexual imposition just comes across as comical--but it's an actual quote from a sodomy trial. Some things really do need a bit of translation.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

Ah yes, Rafe could wax long about Ambrose's fundament. I think it's a lovely word. :D

and yard. Please. who are we kidding, exactly?

[lee-rowan.livejournal.com]

Yardarm--ship-slang. Though if it was making an unwelcome intrusion, it would no doubt feel larger than it was.

[jenniferkoliver.livejournal.com]

The worst thing you can do, imho – ymmv, is to shy away from calling a cock a cock because it offends you.

*nods* Voice is so important, but all too easily it can go too far or not far enough. It's finding a good balance and flow. Use too much (or use it in the wrong context) and it sounds clunky and unnatural, but shy away completely and it can sound restrained.

I can understand how difficult it is for some authors to step out of their comfortable, every day voice, but usually they get better the more they write and the more they learn to trust their characters/inner narrator to tell the story.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

Enolabloodygay has a very good additional point below where two people from the same background will also have a differing perspective on swearing - and it's true.

[josephine-myles.livejournal.com]

I'm not entirely sure why, but I relish a bit of bad language, and my characters seem to as well. Maybe it's because I spend so many of my waking hours around young children and can't just let rip with choice epithets!

[copperbeech.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the link. And yes on word choice. I've often wondered why more people don't stop to consider that.

[enolabloodygay.livejournal.com]

Slightly off-topic, but even now, different people, even of the same age range and 'class' use swear words differently. A woman I work with NEVER swears and objects to anyone else doing so, until it's me. Because (in her opinion)although I swear like a trooper, I don't do it in an offensive manner. So when I say 'fucking computer' she hears it as 'Oh this blasted computer isn't working very well and I am rather cross.'
Don't ask me why.
In Lady Chatterley's Lover, she would (probably, according to my Gran, who knew the woman the story was based on) have been appalled if her husband had used the word 'cunt', but from the gamekeeper she adored it. Why? Maybe because it wasn't used by him as a swear word, but as a natural word in his vocabulary.

Incidentally, apart from the alleged origin of that word, it is apparently also an ancient British word for the stump of a tree that stubbornly resists being killed off. I have no idea whether that is true or not, as I am too lazy to investigate it, but it's another theory. :-)

[aishabintjamil.livejournal.com]

On the topic of insults referencing male genitalia, you might also count the various Yiddish words which have crept into English usage: putz, schmuck, schlemiehl, etc. I'm not entirely sure if those should count though, since I don't think most people who use them have any idea what they mean in the original language.

The question of using or not using words whose meaning has shifted when writing in a historical context is a thorny one. The example junkfood_monkey mentioned sort of makes sense, but I think it's dependent on the audience being ignorant of the period. I find swear words, idioms, and so forth that are to my ear clearly modern totally jar me out of a historical setting.