erastes

My favorite book. I read it over and over again (because I really do discover more each time) and I discuss it in excruciating detail with any other fan.

Speaking of which--we are in the midst of chapter by chapter discussion of The Charioteer at

maryrenualtfics. Jump in. We don't mind in the least discussing something that we've "officially" gone past. Just start a thread on anything TC related, and I guarantee that we'll respond.

As for the Laurie/Andrew kiss: Yes, I think Andrew probably started to get a clue around about then, but he still had a lot to work out in his head. It was a pretty chaste kiss as kisses go, so Andrew could easily have self-decieved himself that it was purely platonic. (Sort of like the first time David kisses Callan in A Strong and Sudden Thaw.) Even if Andrew wanted more from the kiss, he probably told himself that Laurie hadn't meant more.

And then, of course, Laurie was tranferred soon after. There simply wasn't time for anything to develop before Bunny came along and threw, "Laurie and I are lovers," in Andrew's face.

As for the "messages" you took away from TC--yes, I think you understood the novel quite well.

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Misspelled! Try

maryrenaultfics instead.

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Yes well, what I need is YOU to sit here on my settee and talk to me about it, typing takes so LONG.

It was a divine kiss, and so annoying that it got interrupted, but I think the nurse did it deliberately. and maybe it wasn't lip to lip.

Another devastating piece was when he helped the young boy to go to sleep and then was in terror that the nurse would take it the wrong way, which is still so topical, a lot of wankers still confusing pedophilia with homosexuality.

I'm glad I got the basics though, I'll have to buy a copy, this is a library book.

Thank you thank you!!

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wildestranger.livejournal.com

Well, come up north and I'll talk to you about it. A lot, as it is my very favourite book and I'm in the process of writing an article about it. :)

As for what I got out of it...*contemplates, and brain explodes from possibilities* Well, one of the most interesting things in it was the physicality, the omissions of description (where you get to imagine what is happening. oh the fun. *g*), the thinking about physicality and not quite verbalising it, and how one has to work hard to appreciate the level in which they're talking about it.

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Oh - wonderful - i can't WAIT to see your article! Will we get to see it??

I think the physicality is something I struggled with but then I did read it rather too fast, as I couldn't see any portions where they would have got together other than at lauries house and then when Ralph says "come here and say goodbye"

*sob*

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wildestranger.livejournal.com

Well...it depends on whether any of them academic journals will want to publish it. And then I would be publishing under my real name, so possibly not. But we'll see. I might give you a nudge if that happens. :)

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leni-jess.livejournal.com

I think I first read this in the early 70s, and I suspect the messages I got out of it would have been heavily influenced by my then semi-underground gay newspaper reading...

I think at the time I might have seen it as a modern, low-key, personal-focus story, unlike her big ancient history things, which had the freight of all of mythology and history. So you could think about what the situations did to the characters, and not worry about what it did to society.

I know I pretty much dismissed Andrew. Ralph was so much a sensible bloke, and his fierce honesty was so much better for Laurie (who has all these self-perception handicaps, yes). Ralph was an adult. Laurie was capable of becoming an adult, and was getting there. Andrew didn't want to know. He was prepared to let other people be responsible for him.

I think Renault is saying that's not on, however innocent/ignorant you are.

Okay, try again later, kid, but you've missed the Laurie boat.

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I agree with you, but I don't think Laurie gave Andrew a good trial - but then he was in protective mode - and we saw that right in the first scene with Ralph, I suppose, he's got this protective and nurturing feeling that runs all the way through the book.

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You say, "Andrew didn't want to know," and I have to disagree.

Andrew wrote in his final letter to Laurie, "...since one can't refuse to know oneself, and it must have happened eventually, I would rather it was through you than anyone else."

Ralph told Laurie that he was being unfair to Andrew in hiding the truth from him, that if Andrew was worth anything, he'd rather know the truth. In this letter, Andrew says the same.

Andrew is actually a lot like Ralph. No wonder Laurie had trouble choosing between them.

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I wonder about Andrew - whether he'll stay away, or whether he won't be able to resist and will write and how Laurie will let him down.

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Andrew has "the courage of his convictions" and is stubborn when he feels he's right. (Reread the scene when Charlot is dying.) He'll resist temptation (and Laurie is temptation).

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rmanley.livejournal.com

Andrew was the most problematic character for me, I must admit. As Ralph's antithesis, I find him painfully - even extremely - boxed in. When a boy ignores all sirens and runs out to watch bombs/enemy planes/whatever happen around him, you know he's not going to last.

That said, I'll have to say, yes, he is that innocent the way I read him. Had Laurie not kissed him, I don't think his cloistered world would have experienced a shift, and he'd have continued to go along with the whole platonic thing without even understanding it.

I love the way Renault uses language that's both intricate and mystifying that you're confused at times and yet somehow are aware that you know what's going on at a more intuitive level.

Even Bunny, prodigious twat that he is, seems easy to understand, but I still find myself pausing and backtracking to reread passages twice because somehow I think that I've missed something.

I will not comment on Ralph's utter sexiness, or I'll never go to work. :D Now I want to read that book again, damaged pages and all.

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Yes, as I've said down further, I just didn't see enough of Andrew, through Laurie's eyes, to understand how Laurie fell so hard so fast.

I think the two pieces that I adore at the moment was Laurie's tremendous put-down to Bim at the party "Yes, it was the Odyssey, the one where the hero returns from the war and finds the flash boys hanging around on the patio and sees them off" Such brilliance, and a flash of his true personality which he quickly muffles in a OMG what would Ralph think if he heard that?

And Bim, himself, such a fabulous cameo, who had "been ok" and had gradually got more brittle and more brittle and then you realise that he's a flyboy and the Battle of Britain is going on...

I even liked Bunny and felt very sorry for him, and I've done stupid vengeful things like he did.

And yes! squeeful! How sexy is Ralph? LOTS!!!

oh and Alec... And Sandy... And the nurse... and the het kissing, -- too wonderful for words.

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Laurie's "love at first sight" reaction to meeting Andrew was problematic for me--at first. (I don't believe in it, so...)

Then I read Phaedrus. Plato says that an erastes will feel love at first sight when he sees his eromenos. The eromenos will believe their relationship is friendship but will eventually realize it is love. (Sound like both Ralph/Laurie and Laurie/Andrew.) Phaedrus is Laurie's Bible, his guide to life, so he's been waiting for Eros's arrow, love at first sight to hit.

Then he sees someone who looks like Ralph, who (subconciously) reminds him of Ralph. Can we blame him for assuming what he's feeling is love at first sight?

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I do believe in it, or at least lust...

*G*

I'll definitely have to read Phaedrus, as yes, as you say, it's his Bible, and in light of that information we see a lot more of Laurie.

And thank you! I'd forgotten about the fact that Andrew reminded him of Ralph!

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Josh Lanyon has dedicated his latest ebook, The Dark Horse, to The Charioteer. Here what he has written:

Dedication.

To all those for whom The Charioteer made a difference

“But I should have come back, anyway. I should have had to come back.
The Charioteer, Mary Renault.

ciao, elisa

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Hmm. She obviously called herself after Ralph, perhaps!

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I'm not sure but he is a man. But I don't know if Josh Lanyon is his real name

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sorry that was a slip of the fingers - i knew he was a man, and he's hot, too.

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Oh yes? Hot, hum? And how do you know it? Do you hide something to us? ahi ahi ahi, you betray Lucius so soon? elisa (in one of her silly moments...)

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Bah. Lucius? He only rents a room with Severus, and these walls are paper thin let me tell you...

Josh
http://www.sleuthedit.com/JoshLanyon/JoshLanyon.html

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Oh yes, definitely hot. But very young!!! I suppose this is not a recent picture...

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fiona-glass.livejournal.com

It's one of my all-time favourites too. And the best last line EVER, in the entire history of writing, imho. :)

My only niggle is that Laurie seems to prefer Andrew to Ralph. I mean, why? He's been in love with Ralph since school, it would seem natural to fall into his arms when the opportunity finally presented itself. Maybe that's the brilliance of Mary Renault, that she didn't just opt for the standard romantic plotline, but went off in a different and more difficult direction. After all, we all know the path of true love doesn't exactly run smooth... LOL

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It's wonderful, just wonderful.

I would have liked to have seen MORE of Andrew through Laurie's eyes, I don't think there's enough of it, they meet so few times in the book, and we hardly know what he looks like, other than a few descriptions, and I just don't GET why he is so attracted.

He does say he loves them both as much as each other, and I love Ralph's "see the boy when you can" which just broke me, because I don't think Ralph was being honest with himself.

There was so much UST i wanted to push them all together in a big squidgy heap... *sigh*

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katiemorris.livejournal.com

It had such a profound impact on me and is truly one of those books that I’m sure will remain with me forever.

You're describing there how I felt when I'd read "The Persian Boy". My gob had never been so smacked. I worked my way through all her books as soon as I could, but in those days there was no internet to discuss things with, I just had my friend who had recced the books originally to me. The Charioteer is amazing. So glad you have discovered it. Something to aim for, eh?

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