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May. 11th, 2007 03:00 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
erastesHistorical help!!
I've looked and looked and can't find an answer to this...
Would a town church ring the hours all through the day and night? I know that our village church does, for example in the present day, but that's set up with a mechanism, in 1642 which is where my story is, it would need to be done by human hand....
Any thoughts? Knowledge? Links?
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Date: 2007-05-11 02:41 pm (UTC)"Even in ordinary parish churches it was customary to ring not only for Mass but before both Matins and Vespers (Hartzheim, IV, 247; V, 327) while differences in the manner of ringing and the number of bells employed indicated the grade of the feast, the nature of the service, the fact that a sermon would be preached, and many other details. The custom of making such announcement by bell still survives here and there. Thus in Rome on the evening before a fast day, the bells are rung for a quarters of an hour in all the parish churches to remind people of their obligation on the morrow."
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02418b.htm , Scroll down to Part III: Uses.
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Date: 2007-05-11 05:44 pm (UTC)It's just annoying not to KNOW.
Thanks again!
maybe this
Date: 2007-05-11 02:51 pm (UTC)http://www.nonoise.org/library/noisesil/noisesil.htm
Re: maybe this
Date: 2007-05-11 05:44 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-05-11 03:02 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-05-11 05:45 pm (UTC)Thanks hun
no subject
Date: 2007-05-11 03:07 pm (UTC)In medieval times the craft of bellfounding began to develop and bells were hung in towers especially for them. To begin with the bells were hung downwards, but it was soon realised that by swinging the bell through a wider and wider arc a progressively fuller and richer tone was produced. To enable a bell to be swung in this way a wheel was attached and a rope tied to the wheel, so that the ringer could control the swing of the bell to some extent.
In the sixteenth century ringers developed a system of full-circle ringing, so that the bell starts from a mouth upward position, swings through a full circle and comes to rest mouth upwards again before swinging back full-circle in the opposite direction. It was realised that a ringer had some control over the bell's movement by varying the time during which it was held on the balance with the mouth upwards. Change ringing developed by altering the sequence in which the bells in the tower were sounded. Bellringing in those days was mainly a secular activity, practised by the squires and nobility. Some of the first ringing societies were founded at that time - the oldest society still in existence was founded by Lord Brereton in 1637. In the nineteenth century ringing became increasingly identified with the Church, with most ringing peals being hung in church towers, and rung to mark Sunday services, weddings and so on.
Here's a bit about bellringing in your area:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/norfolk/faith/bellringers.shtml
About bells in the English Civil War, http://www.dartfordarchive.org.uk/early_modern/military_civilwar.shtml has this to say:
Important victories in the Civil War were commemorated by the ringing of the church bells. In 1645, 5 shillings was paid to the Dartford bell-ringers when Sir William Waller defeated Sir Ralph Hopten at Winchester.
There's also the possibility that the bells wouldn't have rung at all, because they weren't there. Quite a lot of church bells were taken during the English Civil War and melted down to make cannons.
I can tell you from personal experience that the bells at Hertford College, Oxford University, do indeed chime every hour on the hour from midnight Sunday to 8 p.m. Sunday, and that's it's deafening. I learned to be well away from my rooms--which were next to the college chapel--on Sundays. The bells made my room shake. No kidding.
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Date: 2007-05-11 05:54 pm (UTC)xxx
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Date: 2007-05-11 04:17 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-05-11 05:53 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-05-11 06:07 pm (UTC)two good sites
Date: 2007-05-11 05:31 pm (UTC)http://absolutewrite.com/forums/index.php
http://community.livejournal.com/little_details/
I've joined Yahoo Groups in the past to pick expert brains on details that I haven't been able to dig up any place else. Some people are very nice about it and want to share their knowledge with you. Other people not so nice. But on one of those lists, I got a piece of info absolutely vital to a story turn, so it was worth being flamed by cranky people. :D
Re: two good sites
Date: 2007-05-11 05:51 pm (UTC)I can't tell you how cross I was...And consequently I complain about it!
Butthank you it is kind of you.
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Date: 2007-05-11 06:18 pm (UTC)I can look specific instances if you'd like, but it appears you already have plenty of answers.
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Date: 2007-05-11 06:23 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-05-11 09:08 pm (UTC)"Martins (which can be referred to by the older expression "Vigiliae") is between 2:30 and 3:00 in the morning.
Lauds (which in the most ancient tradition were called "Matuini or "Matins") Between 5:00 and 6:00 in the morning, in order to end dawn.
Prime Around 7:30 shortly before daybreak.
Terce Around 9:00
Sext Noon
Nones Between 2:00 and 3:00 in the afternoon.
Verspers Around 4:30 at sunset.
Compline around 6:00 before the monks go to bed.
These calculations are based on Northern Italy at the end of November. 14th Century.
Edouard Schneider in Les Heures benedictines. (Paris, Grasset, 1925.)
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Date: 2007-05-11 09:31 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-05-11 07:18 pm (UTC)He's in a very sad way, love, worse, I'm afraid." "Tt—tt, is he really?" and he leaned back and looked in her face. She nodded. Two solemn bells, high up, and not far away, rang out the half-hour at this moment. Mrs. Ashton started. "Oh, do you think you can give order that the minster clock be stopped chiming to-night? 'Tis just over his chamber, and will keep him from sleeping, and to sleep is the only chance for him, that's certain." "Why, to be sure, if there were need, real need, it could be done, but not upon any[Pg 6] light occasion. This Frank, now, do you assure me that his recovery stands upon it?" said Dr. Ashton: his voice was loud and rather hard. "I do verily believe it," said his wife. "Then, if it must be, bid Molly run across to Simpkins and say on my authority that he is to stop the clock chimes at sunset: and—yes—she is after that to say to my lord Saul that I wish to see him presently in this room." Mrs. Ashton hurried off.
It's a minster, true, and the year in the story is 1730. Perhaps James didn't do his research, but ti sounds as if the fictional minster clocks had a chime every hour.
This does sound like a mechanical clock.
Is there a clock in the church belltower? If so, when was it installed?
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Date: 2007-05-11 07:56 pm (UTC)This is Kineton
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kineton
Literally NO details. I should just GO there, I could get there and back in a day.
However I've emailed the Kineton historical association to see if they can help. Here's hoping. I'll ask my English Civil War Re-enactors too
Mistley (where Matthew Hopkins and one of my protags hang out in the second half of the book is similar. STEEPED in Witchfinding history, but if you do the research on the bloody place you can find out that there's a "nice pub" and that's about it.
ARGH!
no subject
Date: 2007-05-11 07:56 pm (UTC)A church clock is mentioned in 1589 (fn. 164) and by 1664 there were chimes as well. (fn. 165) In 1888 a new clock was provided and the chimes were restored, (fn. 166) while in 1894 the clock was supplied with two new dials. (fn. 167)
Full story: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=53357
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Date: 2007-05-11 07:58 pm (UTC)I've just discovered I don't have any nice cute hug icons, just violent and bitchy..
eep!
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Date: 2007-05-11 08:00 pm (UTC)I don't know about Kineton church, however; I'm looking.
I've just discovered I don't have any nice cute hug icons, just violent and bitchy..
I found at one point that ALL of my icons were bitchy, so I made up some happy icons. Gah.
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Date: 2007-05-11 08:02 pm (UTC)In 1553 there were two bells and a hand bell; a sanctus bell had been sold for 12s. (fn. 85) There were at least five bells in the later 17th century, (fn. 86) and one was recast at Nottingham in 1677. (fn. 87) The bells were recast in 1721 as a peal of six by Abraham Rudhall of Gloucester. (fn. 88) In 1863 two bells were added, cast by John Warner & Sons of London, and in 1926 two more, cast by Gillett & Johnson of Croydon. (fn. 89) A carillon made by Gillett & Bland of Croydon was installed by subscription in 1874; it consists of 14 tunes, one of which is played four times in the course of each day. (fn. 90) A clock was repaired in 1663. (fn. 91) In 1856 the improvement commissioners, who were already paying the cost of lighting the church clock, agreed to pay the cost of repairing and attending it also. It was still their only public clock in 1894. (fn. 92) In 1874 they installed a clock by Gillett & Bland. Its mechanism was retained for the quarter and hour chimes when it was replaced by an electric clock in 1966–7. (fn. 93)
From: 'Leek: Leek and Lowe', A History of the County of Stafford: Volume 7: Leek and the Moorlands (1996), pp. 84-169. URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=22911. Date accessed: 11 May 2007.
BUT WAIT THERE IS MORE!
Date: 2007-05-11 08:08 pm (UTC)All about St. Peters, Kineton.
Re: BUT WAIT THERE IS MORE!
Date: 2007-05-11 08:33 pm (UTC)Now that IS very useful! The present bells are older, but that's probably because a lot of bells were melted down in the war - so I'm going for hand rung bells done in shifts by assistant vicars, or whatever.
Thank you!
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Date: 2007-05-11 08:09 pm (UTC)http://www.kineton.org.uk/
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Date: 2007-05-11 08:30 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-05-11 08:41 pm (UTC)Kineton Obsession.
Date: 2007-05-11 08:14 pm (UTC)Edgehill, nr Kineton, Warwicks.
The Battle of Edgehill took place on 24th October, 1642, and was the first of many actions which took place between the Royalist and Parliamentary forces in the Civil War. Both sides were evenly matched, each having a total of 13,500 men. Although both sides were to claim a victory the real result was a stalemate. The Royalists would have won easily had it not been for a tactical error on the part of Prince Rupert, who led his cavalry in a devastating charge and so lost a great advantage already won by the King’s men.
At the end of the day King Charles himself made a major blunder when he did not immediately march upon London to win the war outright, instead resting and setting up headquarters at Oxford.
Shortly after midnight on Saturday, 24th December, 1642, shepherds and labourers, making their way home after a night at the local inn, saw the phantom re-enactment of the battle which had occurred just two months previously and in which some of them had fought. They saw the advance of the King’s men upon the ranks of the Parliamentarians, banners flying, drums beating, trumpets blaring, the whole scene being outlined against the background of the sky. They gasped with horror as they saw flame belching from cannon and musket and the whole scene was to last for three hours until the Royalist forces appeared to retreat and the apparition vanished from sight.
22
The terrified witnesses immediately went to Kineton, where they knocked up the local magistrate, William Wood, and the local minister, Samuel Marshall, and told them their fantastic story. Naturally the witnesses were not believed but the following night both William Wood and Samuel Marshall went with the still-terrified witnesses, together with practically the whole village, to the battlefield and were to witness for themselves a repetition of the phantom battle.
A close watch was kept on the area but nothing happened again until the following Saturday night and after that the phenomena was to be repeated regularly on Saturday and Sunday nights for some time afterwards.
The remarkable story reached the ears of King Charles at Oxford and he sent a commission of six officers, including Colonel Lewis Kirk, Captain Dudley and Captain Wainman to investigate the matter fully. They interviewed William Wood, Samuel Marshall and dozens of other witnesses and went to Edgehill themselves the following Saturday and Sunday nights to see for themselves the phantom re-enactment. They not only saw the re-enactment in it’s entirety but also recognised some of their Royalist friends who had been killed in battle, including Sir Edmund Verney, the King’s Standard Bearer. They submitted their report to the King.
Afterwards Edgehill was visited many weekends by Royalist officers who came to see for themselves how they had appeared in action on that day of slaughter in October, 1642, and to learn from their mistakes. This psychic phenomenon was to be witnessed by more people than any other.
In the modern day the phantom Battle of Edgehill is still fought against the outline of the sky. Drums are heard beating, cannons roaring, the cries and groans of the dying and the tumultuous roar from the Parliamentarians as the Royalists are seen to appear to retreat, but all this is now limited to the anniversary of the battle.
From Ghosts of the Midlands.
http://members.aol.com/MercStG2/GOMIDPage1.html
Re: Kineton Obsession.
Date: 2007-05-11 08:28 pm (UTC)All good fun!