When I first heard there were people who felt women shouldn't write (or couldn't write) m/m fiction I felt angry. Where does this sentiment come from? Is it still a remnant of the old-fashioned school of thought that says women are not to enjoy sex and they're either Madonnas or whores?
Writers write and they SHOULD write and what they write, regardless of personal experience, should be believable in the context of the story they're writing. IF they can do that then it's a successful bit of fiction and who cares what the author's gender/background/nationality is?
If we were talking about something other than fiction and the author presented his/her work as being biographical, based on personal experience, factual and it turned out to be fiction THEN people would have a reason to gripe.
Ridiculous to even consider a writer shouldn't write something they have no personal experience with. Research and careful thought can go a long ways.
I know I've said this to you before - my beef with women writing m/m only comes when they pretend to be gay men to do it. Not just assume a male/ambiguous pseud, but create an entire persona to do it. It's fraud - they want the reader to think they have more experience backing their writing than they have.
Actually, they're laughably easy to spot as fakes, if you know any real men's writing, but too many women only read other women's writing. I think it's an eye opener to read the experiences of real gay men, so the actual differences in perception by gender are revealed.
Using gay men as characters doesn't require you to be gay. Pretending to be gay, doesn't make your writing any more authentic.
What you say calls to mind JT Leroy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JT_LeRoy), who not only created a fake history but also had a friend impersonate a man for public appearances. Really bizarre story.
JT (or rather, Laura Albert) had a WOMAN (her sister-in-law) impersonate a man impersonating a woman - very "Victor/Victoria," lol!
I actually liked JT Leroy's books, and one of the things that I tried to discuss at the time the hoax was revealed was whether the fact that she ended up being a 40ish year old middle-class white woman, rather than a sexually/physically abused, HIV-positive, former child hustler, MtF transgender person in his mid-20s, invalidated or diminished the books "he" wrote.
In other words, did the glowing reivew the NYTimes book critic gave the supposedly autobiographical "Sarah" suddenly become invalid when the gender and background of the writer proved to be a big fat lie? While those who knew JT knew it was supposed to be based on "his" life, it WAS a novel - a work of fiction. While those behind the scenes knew it was supposedly written by this child hustler with no formal education, it wasn't as if the reader picked up a book that described itself as an autobiography or a memoir. (Unlike James Frey, who was vilified because he embellished his experiences and presented them as true fact). The writers who helped JT get published (Dennis Cooper, Suzie Bright) are very bitter about the whole thing, and I understand they fell used and manipulated and lied to, but does that suddenly make the books they once praised suddenly turn into shit? Or were the books crap already, and they were giving them praise because they were written by someone so profoundly challenged and lacking in formal education - you know, kind of like a different grading scale a teacher might use for a remedial reading class for mentally challenged students? And if that's their excuse, then weren't those glowing reviews they wrote sort of dishonest, as they neglected to mention that the writing was not good in and of itself, but only when viewed in the context of the background and circumstances of the author?
As for the gender of gay fic authors... There are those (on all sides of the coin) who see the transgendered folks as the lowest on the totem pole. There are many of us who write gay fiction because, quite frankly, it's therapy. Where does that leave us when we use male names because that's who we ARE--yet no one sees beyond the outside?
There are times when even the writing isn't enough to help me through, and then there are times when I don't give a damn what anyone thinks, when I know who I am and I'll continue to write the one thing helps me be that person until science, medicine, and personal finances allow me to become that person physically.
I don't know why transgender authors like you and James Buchanan don't *write* as transgender people, instead of presenting a persona as a gay man - I'm not saying you're not male in your head, but your experience as a FtM is vastly different, and unique, from a biologically male person who's gay. Or a woman who's just writing gay characters, for that matter. Your experiences aren't even the same as a bisexual's. You're living something rare and poorly known, and if you want people to understand and appreciate what being transgender means, you're in the perfect position to show us.
There are actually very few transgender authors writing as such - and thousands of gay writers or faux gay writers or women writing m/m. Why aren't you using the special insights and experiences you have as FtM to show us what that's like? I'd far and away prefer to read that than yet another 'pretend' gay story, of which there are just too many of indifferent quality.
I have a FtM writer on my flist and she recently wrote an SGA AU fanfic (which she then 'origified') about a FtM teenager and his lover - and she was absolutely astonished by the favourable reception she got. She had no idea people would read it - well, they will. People are always drawn to what is true and what is real.
I have no interest in your insights as a 'gay man', and that goes for James B too, because I don't think your writing differs in voice from any number of any other female authors in this genre. It doesn't give me any sense of being written from the heart. But I would be greatly interested and enthusiastic about you writing as a FtM. That's where you could really carve out your special niche. I'd offer the same advice to bisexual authors too. Real bisexual authors, telling stories based on their real experiences, are too rare and that's a shame because there is so much misinformation about being bi.
I write gay fiction because I enjoy it and because I'm gay. Period. But as far as the FtM stories go, I'm working on that, to be honest. It's a little harder to put those thoughts onto paper because they hit much closer to home. A bit of soul searching, if you will.
It's been pointed out to me how incredibly crass and insensitive it was of me to talk about your identity in a way which implies I consider it fraudulent (which I don't, though I have difficult understanding all the implications.) I wish to apologise for that and any offence and upset I caused. I'm ignorant of the issues, and am trying to educate myself so I don't repeat the offence.
Thanks. :) It's not something easily understood unless you know someone who's going through it, but at least you're learning more about it. Some folks don't even bother. No harm done. :)
Interesting subject, and one I've thought about quite a bit.
I read a lot, and since I'm gay, I like to read about gay characters, and I like books by gay writers. I've read most books by the classic gay writers (John Rechy, William S. Burroughs, Andrew Holloran, Edmund White, etc) and by more recently published and/or younger writers (Scott Heim, Blair Mastbaum, Bart Yates, Jim Grimsley, etc). Currently, my absolute favorite writer - of any age/gender/sexual orientation - is Alan Hollinghurst. I've loved every book of his I've read. Of course, none of these guys write romances - some write highly autobiographical "fiction," and others have written coming of age stories (which may or may not be based on their own experiences).
However, when it comes to romance, maybe women writers actually get it better than male writers. The most popular gay love story ever written is probably "Brokeback Mountain," which was written by a straight woman. Another famous book featuring a romance between two men is "The Front Runner," again, by a woman (who is also a lesbian -which, if we're going by stereotypes, would seem to suggest she would know even less about the sexual/emotional dynamics of a m/m relationship, having little or no experience with such). I know many guys who have read and enjoyed "The Persian Boy" and "The Charioteer," both written by a woman.
One of my favorite books is James Baldwin's "Giovanni's Room." Baldwin was African American, but all the characters in the novel are white, including the protagonist who is telling the story. I also love Michael Chabon, and although he has alluded to a sexual relationship with at least one man in his past, he identifies as straight, is happily married, and has several kids. Yet he writes wonderful gay characters in his novels (I particularly like "The Mysteries of Pittsburgh" and "The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier and Clay.")
When it comes to memoirs, or coming of age stories, I admit that I prefer to read a gay writer. But when it comes to historical fiction or romances, in which the main relationship is between two men, I think women writers may often get it better.
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timeasmymeasure
no subject
Date: 2007-11-28 11:18 pm (UTC)Writers write and they SHOULD write and what they write, regardless of personal experience, should be believable in the context of the story they're writing. IF they can do that then it's a successful bit of fiction and who cares what the author's gender/background/nationality is?
If we were talking about something other than fiction and the author presented his/her work as being biographical, based on personal experience, factual and it turned out to be fiction THEN people would have a reason to gripe.
Ridiculous to even consider a writer shouldn't write something they have no personal experience with. Research and careful thought can go a long ways.
no subject
Date: 2007-11-28 11:50 pm (UTC)Back in Sydney there was a street I always used to drive by called Standish - I'd always think of you and have a bit of a giggle.
no subject
Date: 2007-11-28 11:57 pm (UTC)Actually, they're laughably easy to spot as fakes, if you know any real men's writing, but too many women only read other women's writing. I think it's an eye opener to read the experiences of real gay men, so the actual differences in perception by gender are revealed.
Using gay men as characters doesn't require you to be gay. Pretending to be gay, doesn't make your writing any more authentic.
no subject
Date: 2007-11-29 01:09 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-11-29 01:23 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-11-29 05:20 pm (UTC)I actually liked JT Leroy's books, and one of the things that I tried to discuss at the time the hoax was revealed was whether the fact that she ended up being a 40ish year old middle-class white woman, rather than a sexually/physically abused, HIV-positive, former child hustler, MtF transgender person in his mid-20s, invalidated or diminished the books "he" wrote.
In other words, did the glowing reivew the NYTimes book critic gave the supposedly autobiographical "Sarah" suddenly become invalid when the gender and background of the writer proved to be a big fat lie? While those who knew JT knew it was supposed to be based on "his" life, it WAS a novel - a work of fiction. While those behind the scenes knew it was supposedly written by this child hustler with no formal education, it wasn't as if the reader picked up a book that described itself as an autobiography or a memoir. (Unlike James Frey, who was vilified because he embellished his experiences and presented them as true fact). The writers who helped JT get published (Dennis Cooper, Suzie Bright) are very bitter about the whole thing, and I understand they fell used and manipulated and lied to, but does that suddenly make the books they once praised suddenly turn into shit? Or were the books crap already, and they were giving them praise because they were written by someone so profoundly challenged and lacking in formal education - you know, kind of like a different grading scale a teacher might use for a remedial reading class for mentally challenged students? And if that's their excuse, then weren't those glowing reviews they wrote sort of dishonest, as they neglected to mention that the writing was not good in and of itself, but only when viewed in the context of the background and circumstances of the author?
no subject
Date: 2007-11-29 01:48 am (UTC)As for the gender of gay fic authors... There are those (on all sides of the coin) who see the transgendered folks as the lowest on the totem pole. There are many of us who write gay fiction because, quite frankly, it's therapy. Where does that leave us when we use male names because that's who we ARE--yet no one sees beyond the outside?
There are times when even the writing isn't enough to help me through, and then there are times when I don't give a damn what anyone thinks, when I know who I am and I'll continue to write the one thing helps me be that person until science, medicine, and personal finances allow me to become that person physically.
Jeez, talk about rambling. I need more Pepsi.
no subject
Date: 2007-11-29 03:14 am (UTC)There are actually very few transgender authors writing as such - and thousands of gay writers or faux gay writers or women writing m/m. Why aren't you using the special insights and experiences you have as FtM to show us what that's like? I'd far and away prefer to read that than yet another 'pretend' gay story, of which there are just too many of indifferent quality.
I have a FtM writer on my flist and she recently wrote an SGA AU fanfic (which she then 'origified') about a FtM teenager and his lover - and she was absolutely astonished by the favourable reception she got. She had no idea people would read it - well, they will. People are always drawn to what is true and what is real.
I have no interest in your insights as a 'gay man', and that goes for James B too, because I don't think your writing differs in voice from any number of any other female authors in this genre. It doesn't give me any sense of being written from the heart. But I would be greatly interested and enthusiastic about you writing as a FtM. That's where you could really carve out your special niche. I'd offer the same advice to bisexual authors too. Real bisexual authors, telling stories based on their real experiences, are too rare and that's a shame because there is so much misinformation about being bi.
no subject
Date: 2007-11-29 03:19 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-11-29 11:49 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-11-29 11:51 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-11-29 03:20 am (UTC)http://www.fiction.megchan.com/?p=81
And I can't recommend it highly enough. It's brilliant.
no subject
Date: 2007-11-29 03:20 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-11-29 05:07 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-11-29 07:11 am (UTC)A
xxx
no subject
Date: 2007-11-29 04:56 pm (UTC)I read a lot, and since I'm gay, I like to read about gay characters, and I like books by gay writers. I've read most books by the classic gay writers (John Rechy, William S. Burroughs, Andrew Holloran, Edmund White, etc) and by more recently published and/or younger writers (Scott Heim, Blair Mastbaum, Bart Yates, Jim Grimsley, etc). Currently, my absolute favorite writer - of any age/gender/sexual orientation - is Alan Hollinghurst. I've loved every book of his I've read. Of course, none of these guys write romances - some write highly autobiographical "fiction," and others have written coming of age stories (which may or may not be based on their own experiences).
However, when it comes to romance, maybe women writers actually get it better than male writers. The most popular gay love story ever written is probably "Brokeback Mountain," which was written by a straight woman. Another famous book featuring a romance between two men is "The Front Runner," again, by a woman (who is also a lesbian -which, if we're going by stereotypes, would seem to suggest she would know even less about the sexual/emotional dynamics of a m/m relationship, having little or no experience with such). I know many guys who have read and enjoyed "The Persian Boy" and "The Charioteer," both written by a woman.
One of my favorite books is James Baldwin's "Giovanni's Room." Baldwin was African American, but all the characters in the novel are white, including the protagonist who is telling the story. I also love Michael Chabon, and although he has alluded to a sexual relationship with at least one man in his past, he identifies as straight, is happily married, and has several kids. Yet he writes wonderful gay characters in his novels (I particularly like "The Mysteries of Pittsburgh" and "The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier and Clay.")
When it comes to memoirs, or coming of age stories, I admit that I prefer to read a gay writer. But when it comes to historical fiction or romances, in which the main relationship is between two men, I think women writers may often get it better.