Demanding Satisfaction, sir!

[erastes]

Yesterday there was a great m/m day over at Literary Nymphs - and it was a lot of fun. For the first time I just chilled out and just read and commented, rather than promo-ing, and I really enjoyed myself.

That is until I got flamed! As is normal in these chats, people were asking questions of the others: Things like "How did you come up with your penname," "who is your fave character" etc. Then someone asked "What do you guys think of the Happy Ever After?"

I gave my opinion, and assumed that everyone else who had an opinion (even if it was going to be opposite me mine, which frankly it was likely to be) would reply to the original querier, and NOT shoot me down in flames. However, that's what happened. What I did, rather than turn a perfectly enjoyable day into a wank fest was to walk away with an English curled lip and restraining myself from whapping Growly Cub squarely across the face with my kid leather glove.

But I mulled it over and thought - "no, I have an opinion, and I had the right to express it" so I've posted my thoughts on the HEA and why I think it needs to be a SUB genre of "Romance" over at The Macaronis - HERE. I KNOW that just about everyone disagrees with me, so please pop over and have some lively (and polite) dissent and discussion.

And I've just realised that I need to finish my novella for Linden Bay by end of June. That means 30,000 words in a month. ARGH!!!!

Comments

[megleigh.livejournal.com]

oh my! I missed that! But good for you not letting it blow up into a wank fest.
I will go read your post on the macaronis now.

[catsintheattic.livejournal.com]

Why would one start a flame about a question like that? It seems stupid, doesn't it?

The HEA - I like it, but I wouldn't need the label. I also like tragic endings, because, just like you said, they are the ones that really strike. And I agree: both should be labeled "romance", because romance is about the love involved, not necessarily about a happy ending.

I can totally understand people like you, who want to read unspoiled, yet for me, it's the opposite. I almost always look at the ending when I'm about halfway through the book, because I can't stand the tension. I'm bad like that. *g* But that doesn't spoil the book for me. I can enjoy the book even more because I'm not distracted by the nervous lurching of my stomach. I love to re-read books and watch a movie for the umpteenth time - the ones I really like get better over the time.

I don't need a label to find out how a book ends. And as I don't need it to be a happy ending, it's still worth the money.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

I would imagine that the person considers they didn't flame, but someone who deconstructs and disagrees with every point I made... don't know what else to call it.

I feel that tension too, and often I have to put the book down because I can't bear to read on, but I do later.

[zehavit-lamasu.livejournal.com]

I am always amazed that people find it necessary to blow up into a wank-fest over a difference of opinion... I tend to shudder at the reverse - Goddess forbid I live in a world where everyone shares my taste and opinion - I WOULD DIE OF BOREDOM!!!

Shameless romance fan here ... of the worst kind - I often read the last page first. I don't mind if the ending is good, bad or best - open, it is just that SOMETIMES I need to know the end in order to enjoy the book... and sometimes I need some suspense so I don't bother... I have no personal rules regarding that so I guess I can see both sides of the argument... It is just the flame that puzzle me ¬_¬

Heh - that wasn't helpful at all was it ? ^^;;

[essayel.livejournal.com]

So it seems there is wank everywhere there is people. So sad.

Once, many years ago, I sent off for the Mills & Boon 'How to become one of our Writers' pack and was appalled to see that the books were written to a strict formula. Set up characters chapter one and two, boy meets girl no later than chapter 4 though she must have heard of him before that, they MUST break up in chapter seven or eight, be reunited in ten to twelve, minimum or four sex scenes/or they should be clearly going to do it on the last page ... etc etc.

Time has gone on from there but I suspect that this HEA thing is to cater primarily for M&B type readers - like my mum who is disappointed I don't write about NICE girls who fall in love and get married and have babies.

For the people who need a safety net [ and sometimes I'm amongst them] yes let them have it, but also let the rest of us choose.

30,000 in a month - gulp - good luck.

[dakotaflint.livejournal.com]

Well, I think it was very classy indeed the way you handled it. Not very well done of Growly Cub, IMO.

I'm happy you did a blog post, as I find myself conflicted about this issue. I think generally, a sub category for HEA would not be a bad thing. As a reader, it would allow me to choose books based on what mood I'm in (sometimes I'm in the mood for smush, sometimes not). And as a writer (I tend toward HFN's) it would make it so I don't (eventually if I ever finish a full length novel!) dissapoint readers that might be looking for something more along the lines of a HEA.

And I think the historical subgenre brings something different to the debate as HEAs are very, very tricky, at least from a reader's perspective as I don't write historicals. I read a historical M/M just the other day and thought, "YEAH RIGHT!" when I got to the ending. There are certain realties that I just cannot suspend disbelief for.

I'm off to read the blog post now-thanks!

(oh and btw, I've been reading your posts for a while now...love, love, love your icons!)

[markprobst.livejournal.com]

Great Macaroni post! Well said. I like some variety in my reading and if every story had a HEA it would just be too cookie-cutter. I feel that those who aren't happy without a happy ending are missing out on the full range of human emotions. Sad endings will many times blow me away more than happy ones. I'll never forget being in 4th grade when my teacher read "Where the Red Fern Grows" to the class. It was an emotional wallop that I found tremedously enriching even though I knew many of the kids were upset and didn't like the sad ending.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

No I think it Was helpful. It shows that people have different levels, and sometimes at different points. I'm the same. sometimes I want to sit and watch Brief Encounter or Camille and sob my weasley black heart out and sometimes I have to have The Princess Bride or something smooshy.

My point is that I don't like the label. Have "Romance" if you like, but let's have another one for people who want to safety net, and keep Romance for any kind of ending.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

I agree with you! As Tracey has pointed out, the whole safety net thing makes the blurb ridiculous! (I'd never actually noticed this before)

"Can a slave girl and a centurion be happy in these troubled times?"

er. Yes.

"Will he find his love again before the sands of time seperate them for ever?"

Er... Yes.

Etc etc etc.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

Thanks!

Yes, the m/m historical (or the f/f too, in a slightly less difficult way) is a balancing act. I LIKE to get the happy ending, and I don't want to do it the same way each time. (that's a pain for a START because if I was writing het Romance I could end them all the same way and no-one would care). But I desperately want to attempt to get it finished in a way that doesn't make the reader want to 1. laugh 2. throw the book across the room or 3. boggle in disbelief.

Glad you like the icons, I don't use as many different ones as I should, so I will, just for you!

Thanks for commenting, and welcome!

[erastes.livejournal.com]

Nod nod. I suppose I'm guilty of not understanding the other point of view. I have been brought up with such a curiosity for everything written that I don't understand the mind set of people who "won't read this" or "that".

Lee Rowan says (and I've seen the point made before) that readers will stop buying one's books if you shock them with a different ending than the one they are expecting. This amazes me. I develop author loyalty like a lot of people, but I wouldn't dream of dropping them if they made me cry or started to write sci-fi. The only reason I would stop buying someone would be if they started to write less well than they had (e.g. JKRowling, Frank Herbert..)

Tis a Puzzlement.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

Thanks Margaret! Much appreciated!

Genre Writing

[treva2007.livejournal.com]

I'm not saying Wikipedia is the be-all and end-all of critical research, but it helps summarize popular understanding of the genre, so I quoted it below. Genre writing is genre writing because it does have certain conventions. Generally romances have a HEA. It's part of the convention. You can certainly have stories with romance elements that do not contain a HEA but you need to be aware that they will be problematic with many readers. That's as it is, no more and no less.


Modern usage of Romance novel denotes a primary focus on the relationship and romantic love between two people; these novels must have an "emotionally satisfying and optimistic ending."[3]

Despite the popularity of this meaning of Romance, other works are still, occasionally, referred to as romances because of their uses of other elements descended from the medieval romance, or from the Romantic movement: larger-than-life heroes and heroines, drama and adventure, marvels that may become fantastic, themes of honor and loyalty, or fairy-tale-like stories and story settings. Shakespeare's later comedies, such as The Tempest or The Winter's Tale are sometimes called his romances. Modern works may differentiate from love-story as romance into different genres, such as planetary romance or Ruritanian romance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romance_(genre)

Re: Genre Writing

[erastes.livejournal.com]

Thanks Treva - I get the conventions, I do. I just don't agree that it should be so rigid. It seems odd, I suppose, because up to now I've written and published only Romance - and who knows, I may always be in that genre but I suppose I'm thinking more as a reader in this instance than a writer. I'm happy to create a happy ending (or at the very least Happy for the last page) for my readers, but when it comes to me reading a book I don't want a safety net for myself.

I quote one book on the blog post, that was self-published and therefore didn't have the words Romance stamped on it and I was blubbing buckets at the end because the author had convinced that one of the protags was dead. That he wasn't was a fabulous surprise - but I couldn't have had the same reaction to a book where I knew before I started, how it was going to end.

I'm just a girl who never ever even felt her Christmas presents, I guess. Not normal.

:)

[zamaxfield.livejournal.com]

I don't think I like labeling of any kind, but I agree it's probably if not necessary, inevitable. I mean, we label books and things and people. But I believe there are two distinct kinds of emotional reactions to this and you (quite rightly because it's your own reaction, after all) don't wish to know what you're getting because you delight in the journey. I think that perhaps you might be in the minority, though, and my sense is that you're willing to risk more when you read than, say, I am.

And nobody needs to be putting you down for your opinion.

Of course, publishers and writers are trying to sell books so they have to label them. And people like me, who only have three brain cells left at the end of the day, want to be assured that the book I pick up to fall asleep with isn't going to make me cry for days afterward like the label, sometimes. Which is not to say I must have the label when I read every darn time. The film Brokeback Mountain? I cried every day for a week. I loved it, loved them.

The problem with an HEA subgenre is that so many more people like HEAs than don't, the subgenre might just as well be labeled 'NOT HEA' instead of 'read at your own risk'. There'd be like, three books in it, because 'not HEAs' just tend to get passed by or picked up by literary publishing houses.

So many discussions about this end up... "Just sell it to a literary publishing house, they don't care if everyone dies."

I'm going to go read the posts, though. *Gets out Brass Knuckles*. No one needs to mess with MY Erastes. Suppose they'd put you off writing? Oh, no! That will never do. Write like the wind, Erastes, and write what you want. I will read you whether there's an HEA or not, and follow your work right over to literary publishing houses as well.

You can take this icon, too, for next time you run into a flame war. I find it quite says everything one needs to say unless one is willing to fling that kid leather glove.

Re: Genre Writing

[treva2007.livejournal.com]

Whereas I've learned to enjoy the journey and all the possible detours even though I know the final destination. I'll play with the rules quite a bit but when and if I completely break them, I know there will be consequences.

[tharain.livejournal.com]

Excellent conversation here. I enjoyed this.

As you know, I'm a GBLHEA (GayBoysLiveHappilyEverAfter) kinda person -- and I love the comment about blurbs being superfluous,, which never occurred to me before -- but you probably don't know I'm a frequent "Read The Ending First" person. Basically, I want to know if someone I like is going to be dead, so I can gird my loins against the event. Such a coward I am.

Thousand words a day? Guh. That can be tough. You can do it.

[essayel.livejournal.com]

Lovely for reading at a time when you need the comfort of knowing what's coming but not exactly challenging.

There have been a few books where I have sat gulping and blubbering in the last few chapters and my husband has said "If it's upset you ,why are you reading it?" and the only answer has had to be "Because it's just so wonderful."

[mzcalypso.livejournal.com]

Those are teh dumbest questions in the world, because they are always answered "yes."

I like HEA, but I hate rigid formula.

[lee-rowan.livejournal.com]

I didn't think that was a flame--to me, a flame would be saying, "well, what do you know, you didn't write a real HEA, Ambrose didn't have Rafe's BAYBEES!" She was pretty vehement, but reasonably civil--no swearing, no all-caps, no ad hominem attacks. (As opposed to, say, anonymous Amazon reviewers who are apparently trying to trash books written by rivals, or whatever.) I would just call it a pretty aggressive rebuttal.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

I've read several people here and other places today that read the ending first and I'm gobsmacked. I had no idea that so many people did this!

I admit, that when I'm reading fantasy from time to time (such as recently with the Farseer books and often with GRRM's saga) I have been known to scout ahead to see if a character survives, but I'd never read the end! Did you read the end of Standish first?

[erastes.livejournal.com]

Yes, and I don't mind her voicing her views-which is why I've posted on a more level playing field. I just don't think (and neither did the Mods) it was suitable to post her reply to me, deconstructing what I said, in a chat/excerpts night where everyone was having a good time. It was a simple mistake in judgement which I don't blame her for, replying to me, rather than voicing her opposite opinion to the original querier. That's what I would have done, anyway.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

Heh. Thanks hun. And Brokeback had exactly the same effect on me. I would be driving to work and suddenly collapse into floods of tears!

[tharain.livejournal.com]

Um...gulp....yes I did.

I almost always do.

::blushes furiously::