(no subject)

[erastes]

Making a stand.

I've just (what great timing) had a reminder from LJ that my automatic payment for my paid account is coming up. I shall be declining to pay that account and shall be reverting to a basic one sans ads.

I don't intend to financially support an institution that wipes out freedom of speech - and you can come and discuss the meaning of that politely on my LJ if you so wish - or that cannot differentiate between fiction and real life.

Dear Livejournal - if you are going to cave into pressure and remove accounts that have fiction that depicts incest and underage sex (don't let me get started on the fact that the great and Mighty America doesn't have the world rules on the age that people are allowed to have sex, please, 16 is the age of consent here, and it's 13 in some european countries) then please don't stop there. Don't discriminate. Make sure that all law breaking is treated equally.

Delete all accounts from all writers who have ever written fictional stories about:

Murder

Prostitution

Violence of any kind

Speeding in cars

Theft

Genocide

Ethnic Cleansing

Underage smoking

Drug Use

Jay walking

Littering

Streaking

.... discrimination....Yes. That's a crime too. Or it is over here.

where do you draw the line, Livejournal? Just where?

Delete the LJ of George Martin, the RSS feed of Neil Gaiman and many others. remove John Dallas Lockhart, and EVERYONE else on this list remove the Darwinians and replace them with creationalists.

So LJ-ers. Make a stand. Don't pay for your account. Create a back-up on Dead Journal, Greatest Journal, Journal fen, MySpace. Some place that knows the difference between imagination and reality.

Comments

[logophilos.livejournal.com]

You know, I could get all worked up about this and stuff (this is the Boob Wank of 2007 if you ask me), but today there was a message on my friendslist that a long time reader of mine and kind of a friend had become engaged to the guy she's been dating for the last year or so. She's totally in love with her man, and over the last few months, we've been reading her amusing, happy posts about how she feels, how wonderful her relationship is, how alive he makes her.

The day he proposed, he got sick. Ten days later, he died.

And you know, that's actual tragedy. Real cause for sorrow. Someone's life changed for ever, and maybe she'll never get over it.

So pardon me if I just can't get worked up about a bunch of RPG journals being deleted, or comms that proudly proclaim their fascination with something a lot of other people find just a bit creepy. Sure, it sucks, and sure LJ is being a total cunt about this. I warned people on my friendslist because a lot of them are young and into manga and anime, and they list incest and shota and chan and stuff, which squicks me the fuck out but I know none of them are actually practitioners.

But it's not real life, and it's not really important. If all the people posting in outrage on this subject took the time spent doing that, giving the person closest to them in their lives a hug, or sending a note to someone from whom they'd drifted out of touch, I think the world would be a net amount better. And after each and everyone of these wanks over OMIGOD THE OPRESHUN!!!!!, the world is a net amount less rich.

Is my personal thought, anyway. Life is just too fucking short.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

Yeah, well, I hear you there - having lost my mother this last Christmas which I will never ever ever get over, as I will never get another mother - I know what grief is like.

However, my mother taught me the value of free speech, this is nothing to do with fandom, or RPG, as I'm not in either any more. If my newest book has sex between fifteen year olds, am I going to be deleted? What about if it sells a million copies? what then? But if I'm just Jane Doe and I write a story about that, why then should I be deleted?

My mother made me who I am - and she'd be disgusted about this, as much as I am. I learned the value of time being too short, as she was taken from me in six short days - but it will never stop me saying what I think needs to be said.

[logophilos.livejournal.com]

it will never stop me saying what I think needs to be said

Oh, absolutely. But I'm just talking about the frothing rage that people are working themselves up into. LJ isn't the only blogging tool around. It's not like someone marching into your house, stealing your computer, or setting fire to your only set of notes. Like I said, it sucks, LJ is not handling this well or gracefully, but I would just like people to get a grip. There have been so many explosions of righteous anger on LJ over the last couple of months, I need a dance card to keep track of them.

You have my sincerest condolences on the loss of your mother. It's over ten years since I lost my brother, and nope, not over that either. You just...learn to get used to them not being around. I hope you have good friends around you who are kind.

[irreparable.livejournal.com]

Just want to point you at this: http://ancarett.livejournal.com/265710.html and at reasoned_speech.

[xrated13.livejournal.com]

*applause*

[aigooism.livejournal.com]

You make a strong point. XD

Makes me feel like a chicken for friends locking my entire journal, now, but I have been thinking about it. Since I work for the lovely US Government (more or less...) and am in the process of trying to find a new job for the said government, I feel like I should hide all "incriminating" information about me (or at least attempt to) and whatnot. X_X;; I feel like I didn't have much of a choice.

But you know, you do make a good point about how we shouldn't pay for a paid account any more if LJ is gonna be a mofo about it.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

Trouble is, you can't hide your LJ without a paid account - so they've got your coming and going.

Clever.

However I won't be locking down!

[aigooism.livejournal.com]

Good for you! I respect you for that.

And your mother did sound like a fantastic woman. A strong woman who knows what's right ^_^

[justholdstill.livejournal.com]

*applauds you*

I just made a very similar post on my own journal, though I did get over-philosophical.
But it's the principle of the thing.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

I read it - bravo!

[elisa-rolle.livejournal.com]

You know, I was waiting your post on this... maybe I begin to know you and know what you like and what you doesn't like...

During all the day I have read in various LJ about what happens, but none of my friends is affected... mmm...

All my post are un-locked and I don't think my post (brief reviews about books) can "alarm" nobody. But if one day I will wake up to discover that my LJ was deleted, never mind: I copy all my pill reviews in my LybraryThing and I have also two blog and a MySpace...

But I won't lock my LJ post and I just have a free account

And I have many times repetead my motto (and still I don't remember who said it...):

Maybe I don't believe in what you say, but I will die to allow you to say it.

ciao, elisa

[erastes.livejournal.com]

I hadn't realy thought about it, but I would be sad to see all my LJ posts go. Nothing much I can do about it, I guess - but i've been here about four years now, and there's a lot I'd hate to lose.

[cheshyre]

Do you mind if I quote this in my journal?

[erastes.livejournal.com]

Go ahead - and thank you! I wish I could be more eloquent to be honest, but you are very welcome.

[cheshyre]

See http://www.osmond-riba.org/lis/journal/2007_05_27_j_archive.htm#5424649044961528282

I tried to make the point that they're not helping any genuine kids with their actions.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

That's a good point. If you want to help abused kids - then HELP abused kids.

[cbpotts.livejournal.com]

Hey, I wanted to stop over and say that while I have a slightly different opinion, I respect what you have to say and I think you said it well. The 'why stop at one illegal activity' is a good point: it's the same logic that makes a movie portraying loving sex R rated while you can chop people up with a chain saw and whatnot and get a PG 13. (A bit of an extreme example, but you know what I mean)

[erastes.livejournal.com]

Nod nod. As Ernest Gaines said:

Why is it that, as a culture, we are more comfortable seeing two men holding guns than holding hands?

And it's Leviticus all over again isn't it? If one illegality is wrong wrong wrong and we all need protection from it - then all of them should be.

[rwday.livejournal.com]

I agree with everything you say, but in this case, it isn't even the content of the LJs that got them suspended - it was the mere fact of listing something illegal as an interest. That was made very clear in the reply that the mod of pornish_pixies got from the Abuse Team.

We recognize that many people list these types of interests for shock value, as a method of expressing opposition for these illegal activities, or to indicate fictional activity. Unfortunately, the Abuse team does not have any discretion in these cases; if a journal profile contains interests that support illegal activity, we must suspend the journal.

Furthermore, they go on to say that they're unable to allow users to go in and modify their interests to remove questionable topics, even though the FAQ on suspension clearly states:

Account suspensions are generally used by the Abuse Team as a last resort. In most cases, a user will be provided with an opportunity to delete any content that is in violation of the Terms of Service before his or her account is suspended. Immediate suspensions are done for certain reasons, including but not limited to:
Denial of Service attacks,
account break-ins,
violation of previous Abuse Team directive,
and journals where all material is a violation of the Terms of Service. (bolding mine)

None of those conditions applies to Pixies, nor to things like that community which existed to discuss Lolita.

I could list an interest in pedophilia (for example) for any number of reasons: I could be a writer wanting to portray it realistically, I could be a child abuse survivor looking to interact with other survivors, I could be a social worker or psychologist who deals with the issue in my practice, or of course, I could be an actual pedophile. And if I list it as an interest, even if I have ZERO content on my LJ pertaining to that interest, I can apparently be suspended without warning.

It's absolutely inappropriate for LJ/Six Apart to tar everyone with the same brush simply for listing an interest. And to knee-jerk suspend accounts without warning and forbid users to take steps to comply with their interpretation of the TOS is wrong on every level. They're kowtowing to a bunch of bigots with an agenda, and while I definitely support the principles of the agenda (stopping child abuse), this isn't the way to go about it.

I'm seriously considering moving to my Blogger account which I set up initially just to make comments on other people's blogs. I can RSS feed to LJ if I choose to keep up with my friends, but unless there are some real changes made to how complaints and suspensions are handled, I don't particularly feel like supporting Six Apart with my presence or my money.

ETA

[rwday.livejournal.com]

Sorry to rant on your journal, hon. I couldn't stop myself.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

Depending what happens I shall probably decamp to Blogger - it's a nicer layout for a start and just as easy to embed into the website.

And rant away - this is the point of freedom of speech. while we've got it, at least.

[lovemefearme.livejournal.com]

I guess this makes up mind rather or not I'm paying for my account again. Gees, step away from the computer for a few days on and life on line goes to pots. Thank you for posting this.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

I'll probably be moving over the Blogspot or Wordpress I think. It will help me wean myself from "the friends list" and will make me treat my blog as what it should be, an advertising and promotional tool, rather than a place I get annoyed more often than not.

xxx

[semioticwarrior.livejournal.com]

Those jaywalking blogs piss me the hell off.

But seriously, although I think I'm a little more conservative on the issue than you are, I don't see why critical thinking can't be employed in these situations. Seventeen is not seven. Research is not practice. Fiction is not reality.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

I'm interested, what statement did I make that was less conservative?

What I fail to understand is why it is all right to make documentaries (which some fiction acts as) and fictional films and autobiographical films with these delicate subjects and yet fictional depictions are not all right?

Why is GRRM's incest all right, but Fred and George's incest not?

[semioticwarrior.livejournal.com]

I'm trying to choose my words carefully, because I respect you as an artist and enjoy your blog. If I offend, it's not intentional.

I think the argument of a varying age of consent is problematic. In some countries it's 18. In some it's 16. In some it's 13. In some it's different depending on whether the couples are same-sex or opposite-sex. In some it's fine to marry off 9-year-olds. In some times and places, women of any age weren't considered able to consent at all, and were forced to marry their rapists. Where to draw the line? I, personally, draw it at about 16. But what does 16 mean? Does it mean the day before the 16th birthday is not ok? It's a problem.

I don't think writing about jaywalking is the moral equivalent of writing about sex between an adult and a child of 9--whether fiction or nonfiction. Writing about a pair of consenting fifteen-year-olds? That, I think, is closer to jaywalking. It certainly isn't the equivalent of murder.

I do think that there should be limits to what can and cannot be published. I do think that depictions of sex between adults and pre-pubescent children, whether fiction or nonfiction, are harmful. I *don't* think discussing Nabokov is the same as raping a toddler.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's a complicated issue that requires a lot of critical thinking. I don't think LJ has the personnel or the time to do all of the thoughtful, case-by-case consideration necessary to do the job right, so they're erring on the side of CYA.

I don't think questioning accounts that list pedophilia and incest as interests is injudicious. Just as I wouldn't object to questioning accounts listing murder, rape, or drug trafficking as interests. Suspending them without notice or review is a little heavy-handed, but I don't consider it a violation of free speech on the order of suspending any account that suggests George W. Bush is a wanker.

I think I'd better step off the soapbox before I stop making sense altogether.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

I don't take offence, generally. (unless wanked for no reason, which has happened!)

I've always had thoughtful, intelligent people on my LJ and you are no exception. So, no I'm not offended at all, courteous discussion is always welcome, even if people disagree.

Yes, I probably went a little far with the J walking thing but I was being flippant and I tend to slide into sarcasm when angry, as you probably know.

I appreciate the differences and it's good if they shut down a few pedo sites - I'm pleased, although I haven't been told which ones they are. However, my post named one major (and infamous) pedo - who (at the time of writing it this morning) still had an active account - and even if that account ISN'T owned by him, but by a fan, or a sock, then it still should have been shut down, rather than some of the sites such as Lolita07.

But when it comes down to it, they did shut these sites down without investigating the sites themselves, in the main - that seems clear. Merely on the interests. A community for Blackcest has been closed, probably Weasleycesters and Wincesters will be next. It was bad handling, and I wish I was surprised, as I expected it earlier, when SA took over, rather than just saddened.

But yes. Bush is a wanker. :)

[aperfectscar.livejournal.com]

Sadly I just renewed my account about 2 weeks ago.

What gets me most annoyed about this is that the accounts have been permanently suspended, and there appears to have been no investigation into whether they actually violated the TOS or not.

[aperfectscar.livejournal.com]

Also, I read some of the WFI blog and I'm really quite scared by them.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

Me too.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

Absolutely. The TOS - as far as I can see by skimming other posts state that suspended accounts should be able to amend their interests but in this case they are not allowing it, because it would mean that there is a possibility that the interests are being amended but the account can still "encourage" criminal activity.

I can't tell you how angry this makes me.

Tagging and other vandalism are also crimes

[dakiwiboid.livejournal.com]

I'm a bit worried about moving to MySpace, though. When I briefly tried it out, I kept being bothered by drive-by friendings from bands, children, and other people who didn't even bother to read by information. It doesn't look like it even has the potential to grow into the kind of environment that LJ was at its best. Sigh.

Re: Tagging and other vandalism are also crimes

[erastes.livejournal.com]

I hate MySpace with a passion, I haven't encountered anything as good as LJ - although DJ and Journal fen are clones and work in the same way - so I shall, if I have to go - regret it, but I won't stay if this doesn't get resolved.