(no subject)

[erastes]

How is it that I can do a review of a book - almost any book - here, on Amazon, or on forums and I get a reasoned discussion or no response at all - BUT if I dare, in threads called "What did you think of The Deathly Hallows?" dotted here and there on the net - I give my honest opinion and say why I thought the last two books sucked - I get people falling over dead in shock that I could be so blasphemous!

Why is JKR so sacrosanct? Why is it so so so WRONG to criticise her? I get this sort of response: "When you think you can do better, then come back and criticise [insert insult here]"

Ok - perhaps I couldn't do better - I have no ambitions to write a huge complicated children's saga.

But. I couldn't possibly EVER in my LIFE write better than, for example, J D Salinger or Radcliffe, or Hemingway - but if I were to write a critique of their work, or state that I didn't like any of their books, or critique just about anyone in the world, I wouldn't get this rabid defensive claptrap for daring to say that the Emperor might not have as many clothes on as the rest of the fanbase think he has. And since when did one have to be a writer to have the right to criticise ANYWAY?

I'm getting a little tired of GOD!Jo, frankly.

Comments

[logophilos.livejournal.com]

I wonder what's worse? An author who thinks they're perfect, or an author whose fanbrats do? Either way, it's ridiculous.

The very little I've seen of JKR's work indicates she's not a fabulous craftswoman or even a fabulous story teller. She just hit the public need at the right time and seized the imagination, like the Star Wars films did. And George Lucas is no genius either, just because his stuff is popular.

So glad I don't have any interest in HP at *all*.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

Yes, I think you've definitely hit the nail on the head. There was already a pretty successful school witch franchise but something happened with Potter. I read somewhere recently that the heaven was in the tiny details with JKR and that's true, but also she DID set up a very promising story Arc. POA is the favourite of many a fan because the whole storyline regarding Harry's father and his gang had so much promise - but what happened was that she didn't deliver on ANY of her promises, and that's why I felt really cheated. It smacked of "thank god i've finished, i wont bother with all that backstory i set up, i'm TOO RICH"

[aigooism.livejournal.com]

o_O Dude, I didn't realise it was a bad thing to criticise JKR. I mean... as an artist, we are expected to be criticised... X_X;; So um... yeah... if we aren't criticised, that means we're perfect, and there is no way anyone is perfect in this world!

[erastes.livejournal.com]

It's blasphemy it seems. I was wanked over at Shelfari, and the most recent complaint came from the board at Romantic Times.

Why ask "what did you think of DH?" if you can't let people tell you what they bloody think!?

[lyras.livejournal.com]

Heh. I've had the opposite experience - everywhere I go, nobody seems to like the book! And I got so tired of all those "Why JKR is not perfect" articles in the lead-up to DH. I've come up against so much anti-JKR feeling in RL, I've taken to prefacing all Potter-related remarks with, "I know she's not the greatest writer in the world, but..." I know she's not perfect, but I don't see why that should stop me enjoying her books.

Re the reaction you're getting to critiquing DH - I dunno, sounds like the places you're posting aren't really interested in critique. They just want to squee and you are harshing them? :).

(Er, just in case it's not obvious, I'm not arguing with your right to hold an opinion or post it anywhere you please. Or even your opinion itself. *ties self in knots*)

[paintedponyxox.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I can't help feeling like almost everyone saying anything negative about her now is being way too harsh just because she's so popular and famous and it's like they think they need to yell really loud in a way that's justy going to piss people off for anybody to hear them amongst the cheering fans that greatly outnumber them. But there's a difference between fairly criticizing a work and getting ridiculous about it and saying "JKR sucks" or "the book is a piece of shit." It seems like a lot of people just expected too much or were thinking the thing had to be fucking perfect just because it's Harry Potter. I can't believe all the outrageously harsh things I've seen people saying about JKR just because of little things like times she's contradicted herself in interviews or written a tiny consistency mistake. Oh, well Jesus Christ on a bicycle, she's human after all, that must mean everything she's ever done is worth shit.

It just seems like people try so hard to find things wrong with her work because it's become such a phenomenon of popularity. Well, if you're looking for it, you'll find it, no matter what it is you're examining. After reading so many thoughts on DH, I've just decided so many people saw in it exactly what they wanted to see. I have plenty of criticisms about the books and would definitely never say they're perfect, but still, I enjoyed DH. But of course, I expected to.

And well, I'm afraid this all isn't very much related to the original post, but maybe all the hardcore HP fans are just tired of their fun being spoiled by so many people bitching about how they hated it, so they're getting intolerant of any kind of negative critique at all. I mean, a lot of them are already sort of bummed right now simply over the fact that it's all over, and this is not the time they want to think about the reasons the book wasn't actually so godly to add to their disappointment.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

Well, I've been critiquing since she wasn't a billionarie. Money and fame has nothing to do with it, I'm as harsh with her as I have been m/m historical fiction writers who can't get their facts straight.

I'm not saying she's perfect. hell, NO-ONEs perfect - and I'm ignoring anything said in interview, live, on podcast, on line chat, chocolate frog cards but their are Too Many Facts WRONG in the books to forgive.

Look at George R R Martin - he's writing a huge saga. every book is as big as OotP or bigger. 100's of characters, scores of locations, backstory going back 1000s of years, noble houses with different coats of arms, and a tortuous storyline weaving its way through the history of a made up world. (and dragons! (wibble))

I'm sure he's made errors, but personally I haven't spotted any - but if he has they aren't on the same scale as the things that JKR has done. I understand the need for secrecy, but it does seem that she would have been a lot better had she got one of the encyclopedicly minded geek fans to help her, beta her and point out stuff like "this spell did something different in this book" or "Dennis Creevey isn't old enough to go to Hogsmeade" - yes - petty stuff - but it all adds up.

People seem to think I didn't enjoy the saga. I did. Of course I did. I wrote 100's of fanfic over 3 years or so. I played in RPGs for 2 years. I bought every book, saw every film. I was committed, but she let her readers down by sloppiness. My literature teacher would have put SLAP DASH in her final mss - in red ink

[erastes.livejournal.com]

Heh! One of them was "What did you think of DH" and the other one was "Write your review and win a prize"!!!

I don't squash their squee, so it's pissing me off they squash my grumpiness.

*G*

[gehayi.livejournal.com]

Hear, hear! It's about time someone said it!

Seriously, I've been hearing this for a while because I hated HBP so much. And over and over I've heard people saying, to me and to others, "You shouldn't say that until YOU can do better/write a children's series/become a best-selling author!" "God, some people are just jealous of genius!" "How DARE you say that about her writing? She is a GODDESS!"

No. No, she's not.

When Rowling's interested in a story, she can really put one across, yes. She's a storyteller. But she has little style, and her technique is weak. She's less familiar with her world than most of the readers of her books. There are constant logical errors, perpetual plotholes, and in-canon canonical errors. I won't even get into the presence of the idiot plot--the plot that won't work if the characters aren't complete idiots. And frankly, I think she got bored with the series after OotP. The old fire and fervor just isn't there.

Does this mean I don't love the series? No. I do. But I can also see plenty of flaws. I don't see why I shouldn't say so.

Because here's the oddity. I've been in a LOT of fandoms. I became a Trekkie when I was seven. Let me tell you, Trekkies can and will dissect every single episode. If they love something, they'll say so. If they hate it, they'll say that, too. Plenty of George R.R. Martin fans couldn't stand A Feast for Crows, and said so, loudly and often. (I loved it. To each his own.) Discworld fans don't bitch about much, but most seem to agree that they don't care for The Color of Magic or The Light Fantastic, the two earliest (and weakest) books in the series. Stephen King fans are split over the Dark Tower series (some love it, some hate it), argue over the merits of King's science fiction (some say it's as good as his horror, others say it's weaker) and debate the skill with which King portrays women. Highlander fans, by and large, hated three episodes known as the Ahriman Arc. Plenty still refer to the episode in which Duncan MacLeod beheaded his best friend, pupil and surrogate son, Richie Ryan as "The Nonexistent Episode." A substantial number of both Highlander fans and Buffy fans refer to Season Six of their respective canons as "Season Sux." And you haven't lived till you've heard Angel fans bitch about the ending of their series.

All this complaining...and yet they're still considered fans.

So why is it that HP fans aren't accorded the same privilege? When did we give up the right to criticise?

[erastes.livejournal.com]

It's a peculiar phenomenom, really - I've never come up against anything like it anywhere before.

[anderyn.livejournal.com]

I don't know. I don't think Ms. Rowling is God. I think I liked the last book rather better than you did, but I saw faults (Lord, did I see faults!). As a reader, I am entitled to discuss said faults and where I thought she got it right, without having to "do it better". As a writer, well, I can be amazed that she managed to get so many people invested in her story and hope to work out her methods for achieving that, without being sucked into the "everything she did was right" mindset. Obviously, whatever Ms. Rowling did was reading!crack to a lot of people, and it'd be great to know how to do it oneself.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

I rather think that she did get sucked into the mindset, though, that's the thing, she was doing the Diva by the last 3 books and refusing to be edited. I know one thing that no matter how many books I sell, I'll always need editing!!!

*G*

[liriaen.livejournal.com]

*nods* A very tired "hear hear" from the back bench.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

*G*

[mylodon.livejournal.com]

Oh hear, hear.

I can't get on with HP - just bores me rigid - although I appreciate that the series has got a lot of kids interested in reading, which is a good thing. But it's the defensiveness of the fans that gets me. (And some of the illogicality - people in our church who preach against Halloween and any associated stuff, while praising HP to the heights...)

Interestingly, my 16 year old, who reads everything from Austen to Kathy Reich. thinks the HP books are appalling. And confidently predicts that in the next year JKR will announce that she's writing an eighth...

[erastes.livejournal.com]

Your child has good taste - and I agree too. She said a while back that that was it but on the last interview I saw she said "Oh I'll never say never" and now she's talking about doing an encyclopedia...

She'll do more.

Harry Potter and the Minimum Wage, perhaps.

[omnivorously.livejournal.com]

Then there's the argument that popular = quality, which I remember from back when HBP came out. Never mind her content, I think an objective argument could be made that JKR is not a very technically skilled writer.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

She certainly isn't - her sentence structure leaves a LOT to be desired, as I'm finding as I work my way through chapter 26 for the Sporking Community.

[omnivorously.livejournal.com]

(belatedly; I was out of town)

Anything in particular that she does badly? I'm not any good at seeing those things myself, yet, and I'm curious.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

I don't blame JKR - we all write clunky sentences, but there appears to have been no editing. She uses colons in all the wrong places - it's like she just discovered them and thinks that using them with abandon will make her writing more attractive. And as I said, some of her sentences are so awkward they make the baby Lucius cry - if there had been any editing these would have been swept up - there's no sign of it in the earlier books, I re-read Goblet recently and although that's not my favourite, there are none of the crimes to grammar and punctuation that there are in HBP and DH

for example:

Bill and Fleur's cottage stood alone on a cliff overlooking the sea, its walls embedded with shells and whitewashed.

Yes, I know that it's clear that the cottage is embedded, but what the actual sentence says is that it could either be the cottage, the cliff OR the sea.

that's one of many, I'm afraid!

[omnivorously.livejournal.com]

Man, I was hoping for the mystic secrets of an actual published writer, and all I get is "editors are good" ; ) I'm prone to sentence structures that would make more sense in Greek, myself ...

[gehayi.livejournal.com]

She can't keep facts consistent from one book to the next, or even from one chapter to the next.

Take the spell "Relashio." I will swear on a stack of Bibles that "Relashio" is the catch-all spell Rowling uses when she can't remember which spell applies. I'm not kidding. Look at all the things it's been made to do:

1) In GoF, it released a jet of fiery sparks. When cast underwater, it fired a jet of boiling water.

2) In Chapter 10 of HBP, Bob Ogden used Relashio to knock Marvolo Gaunt backwards to keep him from strangling Merope. I don't know why a spell that fires a jet of fire or water would knock anyone backwards, do you?

3) In Chapter 13 of DH, Hermione casts Relashio to make magical chains withdraw from the chair that Mundungus Fletcher is sitting in.

4) And in Chapter 23 of DH, Ron casts Relashio on Peter Pettigrew to make Peter's metal hand stop strangling him.

Good grief, woman! Pick ONE thing the spell does, and stick to it!

There are also a fair number of plotholes. For example, we were told in HBP that Tom Riddle could not fly down the cliff to Cave Horcrux with the kids that he tortured until they weren't right afterwards. Dumbledore said that wizards had never learned to fly with a broom--that it could not be done. And yet Voldemort and Snape spent a good bit of DH flying around like Superman.

Another error. Hermione says this in Chapter 18 of DH:

[Dumbledore was] the one who always voted for Muggle protection and Muggle born rights

No, he didn't. First, Rowling states that he never went into politics. Second, wizards don't have a legislature, or an electoral process. There's just the Minister of Magic—-who's appointed, not elected. He and his staff issue what "decrees" they like; we learned that when we met Umbridge in OotP. Remember all the Educational Decrees she came up with that became law?

Not to mention all of the death and destruction that Canon!Dumbledore is responsible for, due to utter lack of logic on Rowling's part. If you want to see my reaction to that in fic, go here.

And if that doesn't do it for you, go to hbpspork, where each chapter of HBP is treated like a fanfic, with the good stuff being praised and the bad stuff being vivisected.

Or try Mike Smith vs. the Half Blood Prince, and his dissection of Deathly Hallows at mike_smith.

Or So You Don't Have To Read It: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows.

Bottom line--the books are crammed full of misused words, of sentences that need an editor who knows how to diagram, of factual errors, of continuity errors, and of painful lack of logic. Yes, Rowling can put across a story and get people interested in her world--I don't dispute that. But she doesn't have a smidgen of technique. And after seven books, she should have acquired a little.

[omnivorously.livejournal.com]

Does it hurt, to be so stupendously aware of the flaws of those books? It looks like it does. Poor you.

"Yes, Rowling can put across a story and get people interested in her world--I don't dispute that. But she doesn't have a smidgen of technique. And after seven books, she should have acquired a little."

Word!

[erastes.livejournal.com]

Yes - that's the thing I think. After four years, I've improved. I'm not saying I'm good, or even half decent, but I look back at my first stuff and cringe at the mistakes. I'm better now and hope to get more so as the years pass. JKR has been writing this saga for 17 years and doesn't seem to have improved one iota!!

*G*

[rwday.livejournal.com]

I hear you. I suspect it's because people who are fans of Hemingway, Salinger et al are actual grownups and large numbers of the JKR fangirls are just that - fangirls (or boys, must be fair)

I hardly think it's necessary to be able to 'do better' to have an opinion. I think the Washington Redskins have mostly sucked over the past few years - I seriously doubt anyone is going to expect that I can play better football...

[erastes.livejournal.com]

Now that would be hilarious.

*fans mock the team as they screw up*

*team sulks and refuses to play any more until the fans come and do better*

[kethlenda.livejournal.com]

*headdesk*

I agree. Where is it written that you have to worship every word that falls from JKR's lips (or keyboard)? Some of the wank about this is just ridiculous.

You and I are coming from slightly different viewpoints--i.e., you saw a lot of flaws in the last book and didn't like it, and I saw a lot of flaws in it but enjoyed it anyway--but we can at least agree she's not God. She's got flaws. She fucks up sometimes.

I don't know why people get so up in arms about differences in taste. Why can't people just realize that some people like her writing and some people don't? It's like the ship-wars. Why do people have to fight over whether Character X belongs with Character Y or Character Z? They should all just go enjoy whatever floats their own boat and quit flaming other people for doing the same.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

I agree completely. I don't trawl people's post for those who thought it was "brilliant" and force my opinions on them or question their reasons for thinking it brilliant and it's so bloody annoying when people get me to justify why I think it's crap.

The hype ...

[vashtan.livejournal.com]

... is part of the reason why I'll never reaqd moer than the first book, which did not rock my world, and the beginning of bvook 3 or 4 was somewhat laughable in it being so incredibly verbose without achieving anything. Nope.

Re: The hype ...

[erastes.livejournal.com]

beginning of bvook 3 or 4 was somewhat laughable in it being so incredibly verbose without achieving anything.

Giggles. That would sum up so many of them...

[lunalelle.livejournal.com]

Dude, she can spin a good tale, and she's done some good things, but she's not a great writer. It's not blasphemy to say that!

[erastes.livejournal.com]

I'm not flaming, that's the thing. I'm being honest and telling how I feel. I feel cheated. I feel let down. I've been here every step of the way and she ruined it all for me. OK, the majority seems to have liked it, but that's their perogative!!

[beauty-seeker.livejournal.com]

weird eh. i thought the only good HP books were the first three; the last one was a waste of ink and paper, frankly. i think most writers worth their salt could write better than the last few books; however, i also think JKR had a lot of pressure and i'm not sure i could write under that kind of pressure. still, i think she should have stopped after book 3, but that's not how the publishing mills work.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

I agree about 1-3, very much so, she set up so much promise with the marauders and percy and ginny and tonks and greyback....

and then completely - COMPLETELY - failed to deliver. All we got was camping, whining Potter, TRAPS, and females denigrated to underwear washers, cooks, lovers and mothers.

I still hold out GRRM as an example though - I don't see why the richest novelist ever would allow herself to be pressurised. She wasn't under any deadline for the last two books, she should have done what GRRM does - and just take as long as it takes to get it right. But the book feels and reads like she was just pleased to get it finished.

[asphodeline.livejournal.com]

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr, yes. A certain epilogue ruined any small chance she had of gaining the "literary" tag from me - and that chance was small in a microbial sort of way in any case.

GOD!Jo is a laugh.

(oh, and you HAVE done a hell of a lot better. Your HP stuff had far more style and meaning to it.)

[erastes.livejournal.com]

Did you see what she said about her epilogue?

The author was shooting for “nebulous,” something “poetic.” She wanted the readers to feel as if they were looking at Platform 9¾ through the mist, unable to make out exactly who was there and who was not....

Nebulous?

Poetic????

WHERE?

And what a lovely thing to say. Thank you

xxx

[asphodeline.livejournal.com]

Hmmm, nebulous as in cloudy and unclear and wolly perhaps!!

[lee-rowan.livejournal.com]

Um.

Well, actually, you do write better than JKR. Lots of people do. And the worst thing about this is that JKR has reached the point where the publisher either will not or cannot edit her because she's a guaranteed best-seller and it's just not cost-effective.

The first 3 books were interesting--I think she had more time to work on them, and maybe some editorial feedback. The next-to-last book is and will continue to be referred to, in our home, as Half-Baked Prince.

I think some of it boils down to the fact that she is writing fiction for children and young adults. Yes, it's something that people of all ages can enjoy (tho I'd keep the last 4 books away from the under-10 kids). But the people who are absolutely enthralled with the books to the point that they cannot imagine anyone saying anything negative about St.Jo of Hogwarts are, in effect, responding from their "inner child." What you're getting thrown at you are...tantrums. Adults who are reading as adults don't have a problem with the fact that this is an impressive but imperfect body of work. Little kids can't stand to have their favorite toys dissed.

Now, I read Lord of the Rings when I was about 15, and I invariably compare any fantasy work to JRRT. JKR is not a bad writer, but she's more than one initial short of full marks. She let the sausage-factory industry rush her into writing something that was probably not as good as it might have been. It may not be fast-food, but it sure ain't home cooking.

We got a secondhand Dudly Hello from ebay... P's still reading it, I've skimmed it, and ye gods, that epilog reads like bad fanfic. DH can wait--I have something much more interesting waiting in my inbox. (!!!)

[erastes.livejournal.com]

Dudly Hello! *dies laughing*

And I agree with you, she should not have let them rush her, but I get the feeling that she was just relieved to get it all done.

[octoberstorm.livejournal.com]

I really wonder if it's because so many people are unaware of the concept that you can like something - love something - and criticize it. If I love something, I'm more likely to pick at it and over analyze and read between the lines rather than just take it from the mouth of the author.

Or maybe they can't bear to think they've been so invested in a rather mediocre book series for children. I have no idea. I love her world, but to say that Rowling is a perfect writer when she lacks style, coherency and even abiding by the rules she's set up is ridiculous.

BTW, it's alittlewhisper in case you were wondering: now who could that be? :)

[erastes.livejournal.com]

Nod nod - I think gehayi sums that up perfectly above, too - specially about the Buffy and Trek fans.