And not a sign of Noel Edmonds...

[erastes]

I've just discovered

www.swapshop.co.uk which is a bloody good idea.  The nice thing is that it's more of a bartering/alternative currency thing than a bona-fide swap shop - e.g.  You put an item up for "swapping" - someone accepts it and you receive "swap points" which you can then "spend" on items that you would like. So you don't have to actually swap your item for anything that your recipient wants.

What a great idea!  I've got so much stuff I can get rid of this way!

And I've got a writery type question about superfluous characters.

I've been struggling with a novella for several months now. Time enough for some people to have written two full-sized novels, I'm sure. Firstly I think I'm finding it difficult because I had to provide the publisher with an outline of the plot before commencing, and that's not the way I write. Like Stephen King I like to discover the plot at the same pace as my readers and although I generally know how things are going to end, I make it up as I go. Having the plot already outlined in my head means that the book is already written and I'd rather like some more magical means of transposing it onto paper rather than my fingers.

Bah.

But - possibly in rebellion at sticking to the outline given - I've suddenly introduced a new character who I don't really want to delete as he's already got a backstory and history with the main character. But. His only real existence within the story is to sit and have lunch with said main character and whilst I could give him a reason for being there, it doesn't impinge on the plot at all, and so he is, as Willow sings, "mostly filler."

What do you guys think?  If you meet an interesting (hopefully) character in a book and then the author doesn't actually do anything with that character other than to have lunch with main character, would you be annoyed?  And why?

Comments

[markprobst.livejournal.com]

Well, my editor would probably tell you to cut him, because she likes things really lean and if he's not pertinent to the story, buh-bye. But personally I think "filler" can add atmosphere and I don't think every thread has to have a resolution. So no, I would not be annoyed if an interesting character were to only serve as a lunch guest.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

thank you, I was half tempted to cut him,but that's like murder for me, as once I've actually written something down, it's happened and to undo it would be like messing with the time continuum or something...

Stupid I know as the idea of being a writer should be that you can change what you like whenever you like, but I can't think of it like that.

And he's a chap I might use again, so it would be nice to keep him in.

Thanks!

[angrboda]

That's an awesome idea! Now I want to move to England, I want in!

I poked around at the site and didn't see anything about non-UK users, so I suspect it wouldn't be any use for me to try. The shipping costs would be horrendous in the long run. Boo.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

You should see if there's one DK, if not - start one!! :D

I'm thinking that it might be the only way I could afford to save up for a PS3!!

[crawling-angel.livejournal.com]

>>>Like Stephen King I like to discover the plot at the same pace as my readers and although I generally know how things are going to end, I make it up as I go. Having the plot already outlined in my head...

Eeee, that's me too! I can only concentrate on one chapter at a time...get it written...then say ok...what's gonna happen now. I know the beginning and the end and that's what's so much fun the fact that I have to fill in the bits in between.

Character>>> No I don't think I'd be annoyed because he's getting the main character to think and speak so the reader finds out more about him. He might get him to say/think things which are very integral to the plot...if you have one yet that is, hehe ;p

[erastes.livejournal.com]

I'm glad it's not just me - I was beginning to think it was just me. I'm also very much a jigsaw writer, I skip ahead and write scences that interest me more, like arguments and the ending and then slot them in afterwards.

I think you are right, and thank you - I think that his conversation with the MC shows a lot of the MC's character!

*hug*

[rwday.livejournal.com]

Yes, I think it would be kind of frustrating, like someone holding out a slice of cake and then taking it away. Or to use a more writerly sort of analogy, it's like the old 'show a gun in Act I, use it by Act III' thing. I think a lot of readers expect the people and situations they meet on the journey to have a purpose and contribute to the development of the story.

So if it were me, I'd either get rid of him or revise the plot to make him at least marginally significant, but your mileage may vary, of course.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

Thanks hun - it's something that I think I'm going to have to do - I do like the lunch scene, andI don't want to lose him, so I'll have to entwine him in the plot somehow. Annoying isn't it!!

[seraphim-grace.livejournal.com]

I'm the last writer to ask, like you I let my books grow and if a character like that appears I know from past experience he will not easily die and he will take over the mss
I'd say kill him, kill him now, but it won't work, and before you know it you're writing all about him because he's more fun than the main character and he's well and truly taken over.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

Yes, that's exactly what happened to Fleury, he was supposed to be killed off, damn him - not take over the second half of Standish. I don't think this guy is anything like that kind of threat - he might be if it was a full-sized novel but it's going to be difficult to incorporate that into 40,000 words.

It's good just to yak about it, and it's times like this i miss my mother - so I can have someone to talk about it on a face to face basis.

[ejab62.livejournal.com]

Don't cut him out, I'd say. If I remember correctly, you write the same was as I do (random, like puzzle pieces, so he might surprise you and turn up later again?

[erastes.livejournal.com]

Yes, jigsaw puzzle writing!! I'll see if I can slot him in later - if not, I think he'll have to come out.

[sleveen.livejournal.com]

I hate those damn characters. I'm always beating them off with a stick. Every time I am writing something, they show up banging at the door, wanting to get in: "Write me, write me!" Ugh.

Who was the famous editor who said "Kill the babies?" (meaning, get rid of such characters)

It's so hard to do but it has to be done. :) I'll think of you fondly.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

*Laughs* I don't know where he came from. He was supposed to be a character who begs gideon for a swift blow job and gets one but he turned into a best friend with a past... and not a blow job in sight.

*kicks him*

Glad its not just me this happens to.

:D

[crawling-angel.livejournal.com]

SwapShop>>> Oooh, it seems the item has to be sent first before the seller receives points *wibble*

[erastes.livejournal.com]

Yes, I think it's very much on a trust basis, but I always get proof of posting.

[vashtan.livejournal.com]

Don't become a slave to the outline. The concept of an outlines really means: "The book I would have written if I hadn't got much better ideas while writing it."

Nobody will say "no" to your book just because it's not 100% the outline. If that character lives, give him more space.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

Thank you! I wasn't worried about the outline, exactly, more that I was using this scene as an easy way to fill a couple of thousand words and it's all a bit pointless...

But I've managed to work him into the original plot too now. Phew!

[lee-rowan.livejournal.com]

Put him in and keep writing., If he's important, he'll turn up again, if he's not you can put a walk-on into the lunch scene. I haven't found this publisher obsessive about sticking to the outline--that's just to make sure you've actually got an entire idea in mind when you pitched the book. They won't complain if you come up with something more interesting than the outline.

Don't get bogged down polishing one doorknob while you're building a house. I do that myself and it's a horrible time-waster.

Now you've got me curious about the bastard. He probably has a story in his pocket.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

I've done so well today!! Over 2,000 words and still going!

I've managed to work him back in, even though I haven't written him yet, I think we'll be seeing him again at some point in the future though.

I do a lot of knob polishing...

:)

thanks, hun

[jessewave.livejournal.com]

As someone who reviews books I usually like the characters to have some purpose, but that's just me.

Can you expand his role without impacting negatively on the plot? Are you thinking of him as the main character in another book? He's got a backstory and a history so I think subconsciously you're already on the way to writing his story. If his role at the lunch is to clarify something about the plot or the main protagonists then leave him in I say. I don't know that you'd want a character who is just hanging around like a movie extra or filler do you? But I don't think your editor will care as long as the final book hits all the right buttons.

Don't know if this is helpful or what you were looking for.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

No, that's very helpful. I've managed to work him in, now which is good - I hadn't thought what would happen to another character when one of the crises happened and this character, Duncan, has stepped into that breach and helped things out, so he's not so much a vital plot point, but useful and a safety net!

Thank you!

[adventurat.livejournal.com]

Just because this character seems to have only one purpose in THIS draft, doesn't mean you can't give him more to do in the revision stage. Donald Maass in his "Writing the Breakout Novel" and associated workbook would have you give him another purpose in the book, even combining him with another character to achieve this if necessary. Single-purpose characters aren't as interesting or useful as multi-purpose ones, but it doesn't mean they don't have a place from time to time.

[alex-beecroft.livejournal.com]

LOL! I'm a bit late to the party, but I was going to say 'leave him in because usually you can find a way to use these gift characters later.' Gunnar in 'The Witch's Boy' arrived simply on the 'if you can't think of what happens next, have someone enter the room with a gun' principle, and he turned out to be the catalyst on which the entire plot resolved. Your subconscious knows what it's up to :)

[erastes.livejournal.com]

You know, I think it really does (by Jove) - and no-one was more amazed than me!

:)

[lareinenoire.livejournal.com]

Like Stephen King I like to discover the plot at the same pace as my readers and although I generally know how things are going to end, I make it up as I go.

Oh, God. I do that too. And everything I write is full of superfluous characters all of whom have backstories and want to be involved. So far I've been keeping them in, but since rosamund and I are sending our first finished piece to an editor very soon, we're both worried that we'll be told we have too much filler and need to cut them out.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

This is the first time that someone's sort of snuck up on me like this guerrilla-like. Fleury subsumed half of standish but he was at least someone that I planned to write about even if I didn't know his nationality until I started to write about him!!

[jodi-davis.livejournal.com]

Worry about cutting him after you finish the draft - usually for me, that kind of character is there for a reason, but you won't know that till the end. Then with a completed work, see how you feel about his superfluousness.

Also, since I don't know the exact situation so it's hard to say - but most of the time, an outline handed in before the work is done is not going to be brought back in and compared to your final piece. I don't think anyone who writes a book on proposal would bet anything important on how much the original proposal and the final book are alike.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

I'm stuck with him now, after this afternoon's successful writing bout - spurred on probably by this thread (I have the best flist) - I've found him a place to be useful!

I'm sure the publisher won't mind, Lee's been dealing with them for years and she says that a rough draft is all that's needed. hurrah!

[lg-larocque.livejournal.com]

If the character's presence does not really advance the plot, my suggestion would be to eliminate it. But do save it rather than deleting it. The scene/character could develop into a new work at a later date.

I feel your pain on struggling with an ms. My current ms was once a stort story. Once it took off towards a novel-sized work it has been fighting me ever since. Although I believe I am finally over that and am finally getting on with it. (I too, do not outline and enjoy watching the plot unfold under my fingertips).

Cheers!

[erastes.livejournal.com]

Thanks hun. I'm not doing an outline again, if I can help it. But I must get on and get this done (was due 2 weeks ago.... gah...) as until I do I can't do a novel, and that's what I've got to concentrate on in future - I think! I am very happy that LBR gave me the opportunity, but I admit I only really said yes, because I was flattered that they asked me!!!!

[angelabenedetti.livejournal.com]

If there was really no point to his being there -- if while they ate they weren't even discussing anything relevant to the plot, which could help the main character figure something out or see something a new way or whatever -- then yeah, I'd probably be annoyed. It doesn't matter how interesting this dude is; if he doesn't support the story then he's deadwood. I'd be reading that scene and waiting for something relevant to happen, and when it didn't I'd wonder why the time/verbage had been wasted. And there also might be the danger of the reader picking up on something that happens or something they discuss and assuming it is relevant to the story, because everything in a story is supposed to be relevant somehow. If you have a red herring you'd like to plant, this could be a good way to do it. But if the reader grabs something which is actually irrelevant and runs with it when you didn't want them to, that could cause more confusion and annoyance when the reader's trying to get things untangled later.

So yeah, this is just generally a bad idea.

Maybe save him for a sequel? Or just split him off and give him his own book?

Angie

[catsintheattic.livejournal.com]

It made me think of Stephen King, who explored some of his side characters in other books. And no, I wouldn't be annoyed because it would be an invitation for me to think about that character a lot. I would like to know more, but I wouldn't be annoyed. I get much more annoyed when there are jumps in characterisation or the style is too flowery.

I also tend to write in that jumpy jigsaw style. Linear writing is so far away from my comfort zone. I know the overall idea, and even the ending, but I don't know what exactly will happen on the way. Like you said, if I had planned it all out, I would start looking for someone else to type it, the fun of creation already having been used up.

I would second sticking with you new character - he might there to give you a surprise.

[cynical-woman.livejournal.com]

Maybe this is one of those times when inspiration will strike and free you from the shackles of the outline. Do you have to write exactly to the outline, or can you use this interesting 'filler' character to go off in a new, more fun direction? I know that's what I'd probably do.

But then, I don't know you're publisher.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

No - they'll be ok - it was a rough outline only boy meets boy, boy loses boy - that sort of thing. And whee! after my writing marathon of the other day I have it sorted out!

Thanks!