dragons and dragons.

[erastes]

Happy Birthday pfodge!

Campaign for Junction X:
(I thought if I posted updates, it would remind me work on selling it instead of doing nothing)

Three agent queries sent out.

I got the edit part one back for Transgressions today.  In the post! I wasn't expecting a handwritten edit... I've asked the editor what she wants me to do, edit this hard copy or do the Word version in tracked changes.

I have a query about POV that I need help with though, please - because I just don't get POV much of the time...  The paragraph is this:

David chafed against hard work.  He hated the forge and he loathed the smallholding.  His natural state of being was one of cheerful indolence, and he would find any way of avoiding word he could, unabashed by his father's speeches on the merits of toil.  There in keeping, he did not spend more time tha he could avoid, worrying about the inevitable, such as the threat of this father's censure on his return when he found David's work undone.

And the editor has marked it as "You are telling, not showing - stay in his POV."  - please can someone help me re-write this, so I can then use it as a model to rewrite the many other passages that also need to be changed?  I know that I've slipped into omniescent pov (I think?) but don't know how to solve it...

And we now have an Erastes Stud.

Erastes Syringa
Erastes Conflagrate
Erastes Obscura
Erastes Windwillow

Comments

[adventurat.livejournal.com]

Hmm. Without having read any of the foregoing, it's difficult to rewrite this, but for me, the POV shift/telling starts with "he would find any way of avoiding work he could...". To stay in his POV and show rather than tell, you might consider having him remember the ways he's previously used to escape the hard physical labour of the forge and the farm. Perhaps also show his father's lectures, and his unchastened reactions to them.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

Thank you, that's helpful - I can try doing that. Ijust feel particularly DIM.

[adventurat.livejournal.com]

You're not. More a case of "forest for the trees", methinks. :)

[volterra.livejournal.com]

The POVs you're in are sort of David's and the omniscent one.

Sometimes you do have to do a little telling rather than showing (depends on how important it is that David doesn't like hard work).

It could go something like: "David loafed by the village pub, eyeing the forge and his father's small holding across the way. He replayed his father's speeches on the merits of toil but not even that shifted his leaden feet toward the forge."

Only, you know, better written than that.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

Thank you! It's difficult. I want to describe his looks and his hair and it's impossible.

Ah - professional edits, I'd forgotten how much I loved 'em.

[suryaofvulcan.livejournal.com]

Well, I’m not a published author (yet), and I admit I haven’t read any of your work, but I hope you won’t mind if I give it a go as practice for my OU course.

What ‘hard work’ is David actually doing (or avoiding) during this paragraph? Could you show him chafing against it?

For example (and I know this won’t be anywhere near historically accurate):

David flopped down on the solitary chair and scowled resentfully at the pile of irons in the grate. He could hear his father’s voice now, delivering yet another lecture on the merits of toil, yet he didn’t stir. His mind drifted off to other more cheerful pursuits - pursuing James in a leisurely chase through the neighbouring woodland ...

I realise this might be complete crap, but I hope it’s somewhat helpful.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

No, that's very helpful. I feel so stupid that I don't know this stuff. I even went on a course last year, but it didn't teach these kind of rules.

Thank you.

Not read my stuff? I'm hurt!

[suryaofvulcan.livejournal.com]

Don't feel stupid. I usually write in first person, so staying in POV comes quite naturally. I'd say the 'telling, not showing' is more of a problem in this paragraph, but your editor isn't particularly clear about this - she seems to have conflated the two.

Describing his hair is going to be difficult unless a) he looks in a mirror, or b) somebody else touches it.

And erm, well ... anything set before the invention of flush toilets isn't really my thing. (Unless it's Jane Austen.)

[erastes.livejournal.com]

The main problem is, I think, is that I'm most influenced by dead authors where the omniescent is the main POV so to drift in and out seems perfectly natural to me - I'm too old for all this modern thinking...

:)

[pfodge.livejournal.com]

Thank you for the birthday wishes, I have my granddaughter with me today and my daughter will be here shortly with my grandson. Ray is taking me to dinner tonight. It's turning out to be a great day.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

I'm very pleased! I hope there's cake!

[lee-rowan.livejournal.com]

Could you give him some internal nagging from his father? "The fire won't stoke itself, lad, and if we don't pick up the eggs and tend the garden, there won't be food on the table come winter. Hard work makes a snug home..." etc, and then let him rail against it. Sounds like he's got a big life-learning curve ahead of him--hard work was just about everyone's lot, those days.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

I need to rewrite a good few of the passages and make them more personal - I'm just used to thinking in omniescent pov - it doesn't seem odd to me, but obviously does to others!

[lee-rowan.livejournal.com]

That may be the romance genre. This series is apparently targeted toward the 'female romance reader' and they actually told a gay male writer he'd have to use a female pseu! I hope that putting gay romance into the mainstream doesn't run it onto a reef--because I don't think m/m is going to work if it's made too much like m/f.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

Oh dear, that's not good, I don't like the fact that they want men to write under female names.

[lee-rowan.livejournal.com]

At least it isn't as bad as the Black Lace line that "guarantees" its authors are female. WTF? The day a publisher's rep shows up at my door demanding a blood sample to test my chromosomes is the day the door slams in his or her face.

I think it's silly. What's funny, too, is that everyone I know of who's participating either has an androgynous or masculine pseudonym.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

I found Jolie's post on that thread you pointed out rather amusing that "female authors are TOLD to use an ambiguous penname" - er - where does that happen?

I would write under a neutral penname no matter what genre I wrote - even if I wrote het romance, I'd use my initials and surname or something. I only picked Erastes because I thought no men would want to read something that was obviously by a woman. I was glad to be proved wrong. I'm rather stunned by Rick's post, I have to admit. I really thought we'd seen the last of that.

[lee-rowan.livejournal.com]

I don't know where Jolie writes--I've mostly worked with LBR.

My real name is ambiguous and so am I, so I went with something neutral and practically polycultural, Despite my significant otter's suggestion that I use "Rowan Ashore."

[asphodeline.livejournal.com]

I think you're going to have to expand on it to make it more "feelable" - I want to understand how horrible the work is to hate it so much etc.

David despaired of his rough hands,so much for his father's *merits of toil*

only written a million times better than you but you get the gist? Could you get someone else to describe him or shout over at him - eg. Hoi, carrot top - or something more in-keeping and less non PC. (I love red hair btw!!)

Otherwise, aaaaaaaaaaaargh, not fun editing!!

[asphodeline.livejournal.com]

whoops, that should read "million times better BY you" - need some food!

[erastes.livejournal.com]

I just don't get why I can't describe him. I know it would be stupid in first person POV, but not third. I hate "not getting it"

*glum*

[suryaofvulcan.livejournal.com]

Sorry to butt into someone else's thread.

Hmmm - let's see if I can explain it. In limited 3rd person you're basically inside one character's head in exactly the same way as you are with 1st person. You can only describe what he sees (hears, feels), the way he sees it, hears it or feels it. So when it comes to describing the POV character, you have to do it from his own POV.

Now it's pretty rare for a person to describe themselves to themselves - it doesn't ring true - so you have to be a bit skillful about it. You can have another character do some of it: "Have you done something different with your hair?" said Hoshi. You can give the POV character strong feelings about a particular aspect of his appearance: Tucker tried not to look at the long scar that marred the left hand side of his face.

What you can't do is say, Malcolm Reed had chocolate brown hair, steely grey eyes, and a tight little arse like two plums in a hanky, unless Mal is a narcisist and preening in front of the mirror.

Does that help?

[erastes.livejournal.com]

I get it, I just don't understand why I can't slide into omniescent - it doesn't seem wrong to me. I need to describe him, and he's on his own lying naked in the long grass, it's the whole point of the first chapter, to show how tanned, blond and pretty he is. *sigh* if I take all that out, it makes chapter one about one page long...

*weeps in pathetic pointlessness*

[suryaofvulcan.livejournal.com]

Ah, yes, I see what you mean now. Sorry. Wrong end of stick got hold of.

In that case, I don't really see why the first chapter can't be in omniscient - does your publisher have some kind of style sheet that forbids it? It might be effective to start out from high above (the sun's POV, if you will) and gradually pull in closer until you pop into his head at the end of the chapter. (Terry Pratchett does it all the time.)

Otherwise you'll have to concentrate on how it feels to be lying naked in the grass with the sun in his skin.

[busaikko]

Compare and contast is always good. Does he have a sister/brother/cousin? Then you could do something like:

"Well, have fun," said Victor, and swept away with a girl on each arm. David burned with envy....

Later, lying naked in the grass, he wondered what Victor had that he didn't. They were of a height and had similar temperments. It had to be looks: Victor had fair skin and dark hair, with dark eyes that slanted, giving him an exotic appearance. David supposed that he looked common, with his wheat-coloured hair, his blue eyes too wide, making him look constantl surprised, and his skin now darkened by the sun. He did think he was more muscular from all the hard work; but he wasn't elegant, or dashing, or mysterious.

(Oh, the modest lad! *chuckles him under the chin*)

[markprobst.livejournal.com]

Can't offer you any advice because I'd be just as lost as you are regarding POV. I hired a professional editor for my book and she did handwritten edits too. I think it may be commonplace in the industry. Then it was up to me to incorporate the edits into the word document. I'm sure there will be a few edits you will disagree with, but that's where the fun begins because you get to hash it out with her(him?).

[erastes.livejournal.com]

Ah - the hashing. I had SO much fun with that stage with Standish. Not. This seems a lot more sane.

:)

[alex-beecroft.livejournal.com]

I think you need to have David do something to demonstrate his hatred of hard work. Maybe a little scene where he meets someone and tells them how much he hates it. Then they can say 'your poor father is always telling you about the merits of toil' and he can say 'yes, I hate that too, I'm going down to the meadow. If you see him, don't tell him where I am.' The problem is the omniscient POV.

If you want to describe him physically, you could make him a bit narcissistic, so that he can never pass a pane of glass or puddle without checking what he looks like. If you want to describe his character it's probably easiest to have another character comment about it.

[shiawmeimei.livejournal.com]

In his POV, you are in his head. You should describe only the things he can see, feel, hear, taste, smell. He can't know what another person is seeing, feeling, hearing, tasting, smelling except through visual cues or the other character saying something.

I'm not sure where this passage is out of POV. I do see the tell versus show. Actually it seems like a bit of a backstory dump but I can't tell for sure without seeing more of the passage. These may be things you could "show" better in an actual confrontation with the father. Of course, you are in edits and you probably don't want to rewrite the whole scene. (I wouldn't.) I saw several good suggestions in your comments on changing the tell to show already so I won't rehash it.

However, I will address the describing a character thing. Having a character describe their own looks falls into too self-aware. I don't go around thinking about myself as an overweight old lady with gray hair. Even if I was young, skinny and blonde, these aren't things we think about unless something triggers it. A birthday to remind me of my age. A mirror or still water to catch a reflection of gray. My jeans too tight to zip unless I lay on the bed.

Each of those statements give me a reason to clue the reader into my appearance. Otherwise, I'm stepping out of my POV by being too self-aware.

Hope that makes sense... LOL