Yes I'm likely to be spammy today...

[erastes]

You'll see a lot from me today, I'm afraid as I have about three days of stuff to catch up with...

Just been reading this thread over at Dear Author.  It starts off as the (Yawn Yawn) subject of "does a writer have to had experienced love to be able to convince the reader of it." and then very quickly descends into a dissection of whether female authors of m/m romance can write gay romance (or indeed lit - "no" says Anne Sommerville - well, she should know.) and for some bizarre reason, almost becomes a witchhunt as to "IS JOSH LANYON A *SHOCK* GIRL?"

Oh for fuck's sake.

1. Haven't we had enough of this subject?  It seems to pop up, like mushrooms on a regular basis.
2. As to Lanyon - WHY (to quote that wonderful video on Prop8) does it matter TO YOU?
3. Why is it so important to know what gender an author is?  It didn't matter so much before the internet when we could find this information out immediately. We took for granted that the author bio in the book (because that's all we had) was right.  There have been many men writing lesbian stories and romance stories, men write Mills and Boons and romance. Why do we NEED to know what gender they are?  As I said in my comment on that thread - I find this OBSESSION to know what a writer has between their legs (and yes- just stop and think about that concept for a moment, do you grasp new acquaintances between the legs to ascertain their sex?) as offensive as if my employer asked me at an interview "What sexual persuasion are you?"

Grow up, people.

But the best thing on the ENTIRE thread.  Teddypig used my phrase "OK Homo"  *dies*

Comments

[mroctober.livejournal.com]

A modified form of the conversation pops up whenever gay authors get together to chat about m/m romance.

[ggymeta.wordpress.com (from livejournal.com)]

*yawn* Sick of this discussion.

I like this defense of 'it's not about you, focus on the subject'. Dear lord, of course it's going to get personal for the PERSON NAMED IN THE POST. >_< It's personally the moment you mention their name!

So what if Josh Lanyon is a woman? Either way, a night with Josh Lanyon would still require me to break out my strap-on. I'll make sure I take pics for the haterz. *thumbs up*

[ggymeta.wordpress.com (from livejournal.com)]

personally=personal.

[sleveen.livejournal.com]

You're right- I am SO SICK of this "what gender is the author" which quickly devolves into "what sexual persuasion is the author" which is really just a veiled way of saying "what RIGHT does THIS PARTICULAR AUTHOR have to write about my sexual persuasion/gender/kinks/brand of tea?"

It brings me back to the ridiculousness of feminism's 'standpoint theory' (I did my minor concentration in my first undergraduate degree in Women's Studies) that stipulates that only those who have experienced a thing first-hand can effectively write/emote about it.

Whoops - there goes Stanislavky... (and the Brontes, and Jane Austen and - well, everyone, really.)

[mylodon.livejournal.com]

Definitely Shakespeare out, as well. Or was he a woman to have been able to give us such great characters as Rosalind?

And does that mean that Sci-fi has to be written by aliens?

Ohai Erastes. Weer in yur jurnal, takin the rip...

[zoepaleologa.livejournal.com]

By the same token, I need to have committed murder to write one.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

And that's understandable, really - I just get the feeling that some forums use the topic as a springboard to beget a bazillion comments - 160 plus on that thread where normally there is 20 or so - and where it started out "do you need to be in love to write about love" suddenly it got a lot more targetted and not very pleasant. Sometimes I feel like crawling back into the pit of fandom.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

Completely. It's an utterly stupid concept. You don't see murderers sitting around in prisons complaining about the "bitches" who are writing murder stories but haven't had the balls to actually do it.

Or at least, that could happen - but I doubt it!!

[erastes.livejournal.com]

Nod. If we really are going to stick to write what you know I'd never sell one book. Who's going to want to read about my life? Er. No-one.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

I found the "this isn't gossip" factor baffling, too. *rolls eyes* Am sick of it too. Didn't really want to spawn a discussion here... should have closed comments just wanted to rant. Been missing from the net for a few days and had a lot to catch up with!

[mroctober.livejournal.com]

I'm afraid that a lot of this is sparked by envy. Envy over acclaim, over sales, over fan following.

[mroctober.livejournal.com]

Now that would be a funny story.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

I have to agree with you there. Nod nod.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

*chortles * I could actually see it in my head as I was typing it out.

[txilar.livejournal.com]

Off topic, I LOVE your icon! *total Donald fan*

As to the rest, I'm off to conquer an empire; I need the experience points!

[erastes.livejournal.com]

I adore Donald too - and I'm a bit like that when I finally lose my cool..

:)

[zehavit-lamasu.livejournal.com]

Ahahahah - I am still completely overwhelmed by Anne Somerville ability to tell who is gay and who isn't... HER GAY FRIENDS GAVE HER A GAYDAR!!!

This is such an old argument and it was silly when it was young as well... the Yaoi fandom like saying that gay men can't write good romance because they only understand the sexual side... so... same coin... different side... and so on...

[erastes.livejournal.com]

Absolutely. And her statement saying that Josh is either "a woman, or ‘he’ has decided to imitate the female style of gay romance to sell to the primarily female audience." Is just unreal. As Teddypig says he doesn't write "chicks with dicks" and what the hell is "the female style of gay romance" anyway??

As I said in my comment - many gay men write just as "girlie" men as women do. And most of the gay men I know are every bit as romantic as any of my female friends - more so, in some cases.

[queeredfiction.livejournal.com]

I find it all a moot point ... unless you're sleeping with the author.

[pepperlandgirl4.livejournal.com]

I love the concept that men can't be romantic, or loving, or sensitive or "girly." You know, the half of the population that is still almost exclusively charged with A) Making the first move B)Wooing their partners C)Proposing marriage and D)keeping the romance alive after marriage. In light of all the debate over gay marriage in the States, you'd think it's a bit obvious that men don't go through the standard mating ritual just to get laid--gay men don't even need to go through all that to get some ass! And yet, they want to get married, too. I mean, it's almost as if they have actual emotions and the desire to express those emotions.

How bizarre, right?

[erastes.livejournal.com]

It's like they want to seperate "MEN" into one half of the population. Regardless of sexual preference all MEN have to be the same and they can't be -as you say-romantic, soppy, giggly, caring, sweet. I've seen all of that in men - gay and straight and a lot more.

I've sat around campfires belching and scratching with women.

I've sat toasting marshmallows wrapped in the same duvet talking about ex-lovers and sharing sexual tips, with men. Even straight me.

THERE ARE NO STEREOTYPES, PEEPS!!

[erastes.livejournal.com]

Exactly

[pepperlandgirl4.livejournal.com]

You know, authors didn't have the ridiculous concept to "write what you know" until the backlash to Romanticism happened in the late 19th century. I personally think that Realism/Naturalism has a lot to answer for, but the most egregious is the concept that authors can only realistically write about what they have experienced. For one thing, what the hell does "realistically" mean. No matter what you write, it's going to be a fantasy. Even if I wrote a tale about a young woman who lives in Utah with her husband, her sister, and her cats and who spends way too much time on the Internet, I'm going to embellish it--that's pretty much a given. If I add certain facts I've never experienced, is it still realistic? Does this apply to other arts? Do song writers need to experience every emotion they write about? Does JJ Abrams need to live aboard the USS Enterprise before he can make the new Star Trek movie?

It's utterly stupid. And I honestly think that most readers and writers if fiction would agree. It's just romance readers who are all tied up over arguing this again, and again, and again. And why can't women write men and men write women? We live with each other. We observe each other. Our lives are completely entwined. We raise kids together, make homes together, go out drinking together, watch movies together. We work together, gossip together, plan together, bitch together. A writer should be an observant and careful thinker--a lifetime of exposure to the opposite sex should be enough experience to know how to write a member of the opposite sex.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

Part of the backlash that ensued, and continued here into Teddypig's blog (www.teddypig.com) was that creating an false persona is wrong to help sell the books. I don't agree with sock-puppets myself, but I agree with TP - everyone deserves their privacy. If Josh was doing what Petulant God was doing and drawing people into a sick little fantasy world with a cast of hundreds then that's bad, but all I can is that he's writing!

I agree with everything you say too, "how can you know what it's like to have sex with a man" people ask me. "er... I'm a woman?" I say!

[pepperlandgirl4.livejournal.com]

I guess I better not reveal that my real name isn't Pepper Espinoza. People might be angry at me for tricking them! Oh, and also, I'm not Latino. So, you know, shame on me. Hell, why don't we all just use our real names online? We don't don't want to trick anybody.

I agree with everything you say too, "how can you know what it's like to have sex with a man" people ask me. "er... I'm a woman?" I say!

Yes, indeed. And if there's something I'm just not sure about, I can always grab my husband, do the thing I just wrote about, and say, "Okay, now, tell me how that feels?" Most of the time, my guess (it feels really good) turns out to be accurate!

[erastes.livejournal.com]

*laughs* I don't know whether to be pleased for your husband, or to feel sorry for him!!

[anderyn.livejournal.com]

I did think the comments by Nora Roberts were pretty apropos -- and I agree with her -- mostly, what you're writing is what the character is thinking and feeling, with luck and craft and all the empathy you can muster. It shouldn't matter if you're male or female or hermaphrodite!

BTW, I found out that my son is living near Ely. So weird. I was reading a book set there last night and thinking "but my son lives there!" -- and wondering what he'd think about it. Though it's a medieval, so I doubt he'd read it.

[semioticwarrior.livejournal.com]

Ummm

The incredibly popular TV series Desperate Housewives has a few gay male writers on the staff. I don't hear any complaining.

And m/m fiction writers are writing fiction, not first person documentary.

Harrumph.

[kittymay.livejournal.com]

Having to experience it, pffft! Guess I'd better get on with building that Tardis then, otherwise all is lost.

[aliquoricegirl.livejournal.com]

I love this one because it is so stupid, and stupid things amuse me. I like to take it to it's logical conclusion, thus: Does a writer have to be a spy or a thief or a murderer (or, hell, an elf princess) to write about one?

[norton-gale.livejournal.com]

“Subconsciously, I think men stick to male writers. They think that what women write doesn’t appeal to them.”

I think this is BS, and I also disagree with Ann Somerville. From the beginning, gay men have been some of the most outspoken readers of my slash HP fiction, and I've always presented myself as female. I'm sure you've had that experience too, both as a fan and pro writer: and I can say the same about many of my female fanfic writing friends. My m/m writing is unapologetically romantic, but that DOESN'T make it "not gay lit." I don't see why gay men who enjoy m/m lit or romance wouldn't enjoy it simply because it's written by female writers. Look at Mary Renault, who's written some of the classic gay novels of the 20th century, and Laura Argiri, who wrote The God in Flight, not to mention you and many other women writing m/m at present.

Ultimately, who cares about the gender of the writer? It's about the writing!

[erastes.livejournal.com]

There were a lot of sensible comments-shame about the handful of batshit insanes! or fingerful.

Ely's a cool place.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

I'm sure all series have a mixed staff, they'd probably be against the law if they didn't, or something I think people seem to forget the "fiction" part. I mean - I would never submit anything (even when my persona was more openly male) to a "real life memoir" kind of anthology - but fiction? Fair game.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

Yes! Otherwise NO space travel, ya hear!

[erastes.livejournal.com]

Apparently!

Someone really needs to tell Jeffrey Archer...

[erastes.livejournal.com]

I agree. Although I think - due to numbers - most of my readers are women, most of the EMAILS I get from readers are from men and they are universally saying things like "Wow - I didn't know that I COULD find historical romance for gay men" or "I'm still crying" or "The characters really moved me." I'm never going to write what Ms Somerville considers to be gay lit-thank God-but as long as a part of my target audience is enjoying my books, then that's reward enough for me. Hell. I just had Neil Placky comment on a story I did about BASEBALL. He said it was terrific. I may never come down from this happy cloud.

[lee-rowan.livejournal.com]

I have posted at DA and spilled teh beans that Josh is actually a boy-girl set of Siamese twins joined at the thumbs.

Yes, I know that's chromosomally impossible. But it makes as much sense as half the stuff that's posted.

What's biting Somerville's butt, anyway? She doesn't write m/m, does she? (Or is 'she' a 'he'...?)

I swear.. it's time for a protest non-fluffy romance writer's convention with a "Come as You Aren't" theme. I could do a fairly convincing Monty Python dumpy hausfrau.

[lee-rowan.livejournal.com]

Tolkien must've been female, then, and Terry Pratchett too. I've never read a more convincing intelligent girl-child than Tiffany Aching, and Eowyn and Galadriel... well! The old faker. I suppose Mrs. Tolkien and the kids were all part of an elaborate charade...

[ggymeta.wordpress.com (from livejournal.com)]

I love the concept that men can't be romantic, or loving, or sensitive

This is the same crap I hear from many a yaoi-elitists who claims that gay man can't write or read yaoi. :)

[erastes.livejournal.com]

You fiend! *laughs*

She does write m/m yes. Free fiction, fantasy and sf - I helped her get accepted at PD Publishing and she has other publishers now.

What happened was, she had a rant once that Josh never bothered to acknowledge her little review site, and got her panties in a wad about it and was quite rude to Josh on her Blog. Josh retaliated when someone pointed the post out - said that he'd never heard of her blog, and anyway he didn't make a habit of posting links to every single review he got - and things got nasty and she had it in for him ever since. It was ages ago too.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

And GRRM HAS TO BE a woman. How could he get inside the head of a mother, a queen and young girls so easily! Georgette RR Martin!

[ggymeta.wordpress.com (from livejournal.com)]

I think the core of the argument here, at least from the DA perspective and Ms. Sommerville's perspective, is that writers who convey sexual ambiguity by choosing a genderless pen name are somehow doing so in order to garnish more readers in fandoms where the gender of the writer matters. While I don't disagree at all with the topic being brought up for discussion [lord knows it's quite a tired topic at this point] I wasn't quite down with the naming of Josh Lanyon, and then the subsequent-- well, let's not get all personal just because we named him [as a possible suspect, of course.]

I bailed out though at the first hint of grudgewank in the comments. Sadly, I've found many a topic at DA interesting, only to close the browser window with an eye-roll because some authors really are just too angry. :/

[norton-gale.livejournal.com]

I don't have any inside knowledge as I'm not a pro writer, but I've heard that publishers or agents sometimes pressure m/m writers to use a male name, due to a presumed bias by readers. I'm not familiar with Josh Lanyon, but I wonder if that might be a possibility.

[gavinatlas.livejournal.com]

I think to understand the psychology of why it matters if someone is male or female, you could maybe look at Hollywood. Why is it such a problem for openly gay actors to get romantic lead roles, even if they are as handsome as Rupert Everett? There is some kind of involuntary trigger in many people that says "I can't forget that this actor is gay and thus the on-screen romantic chemistry isn't working for me." Execs have known that for a while and therefore don't hire gay actors for such roles. If you're being rational, it doesn't make sense, but that's the way it is. The parallel that an on-screen killer isn't a murderer in real life is a good point, but for some reason, audiences (in general) are fine with that, but can't let an actor's sexuality go.

Similarly, we all know that men write for Harlequin, but how often do you seen an obviously male name on the cover? I'm not certain, but I think never. Harlequin knows that readers often have trouble accepting that male writers can write romance that works for them or it feels uncomfortable reading an erotic scene written by a man. Again, not saying that makes sense, it's just a gut reaction.

Thus, I think the same thing expands to m/m erotica. I've actually read on many blogs that women readers don't think men get it right. I've heard gay male writers say that when women complain they don't like stories written by men that there's often a big separation between how women writers portray men who have sex with men and how gay men really are. I think that's true some of time (at least based on all the gay men I've known), but it's certainly not always true. I had no idea Kyle Stone was a woman. One of my favorite authors who is not the least bit romantic is D.V. Sadero. I know nothing about D.V., including his or her gender. (By the way most of my favorite m/m writers are women. Maybe they all are.)

Okay, assume then that author gender does sometimes make a difference to readers. Women often prefer women writers because there's the expectation there will be more emphasis on sensitivity, love, and relationships. Does it matter? It shouldn't in my opinion. Yes, there is envy among male writers and yes, it does hurt me a little when some of the women critics say I don't do a good job of writing gay sex when that's maybe the only thing I actually can write about with authority, but really this whole phenomenon is a wonderful thing. If women are writing m/m, that makes me feel good because, to me, that means that they are accepting of people like me, and you can't take that for granted. If more and more women want to read it, that's even more wonderful. And NO ONE is taking readers away from me. I'm pretty sure this has to be seen as a different market altogether than my target audience. So gay authors, in my opinion, are not really having their ghetto invaded. It's just a new nearby neighborhood. Sure,I can see that some male authors are annoyed because there's a fair amount more money in m/m for women than porn writing for men, but it's been proven many times that women read and buy a lot more books than men. So whose fault is that? Certainly not women writers.

By the way, I'm sure you know men often have the same bias. They find out a woman wrote something that turned them on, and they get looks on their faces that says they're a little uncomfortable or embarrassed beating off to something a woman wrote. Does it make sense? I don't think so, but maybe someone can explain it to me. Can people overcome their gut reactions? Based on how Harlequin and Hollywood have worked for so long, perhaps they can't. So I suspect the hubbub about whether an author is male or female is going to remain even if on a rational level, it shouldn't.

[kittymay.livejournal.com]

No Regency for you, either. I don't believe for a minute that you experienced it, so it's best to just be honest now and stop trying to pull the proverbial wool over everyone's eyes *headsdesk*

[erastes.livejournal.com]

Damn! The icon says it all!

[lg-larocque.livejournal.com]

(I am finally catching up on a weeks worth of flist postings.)

"Oh for fuck's sake."

Well said!