erastes

And from experience: you edit, get someone else to go through it, then print it and edit on paper, then get someone else to go over it, then ... ad absurdum, no matter how often and how many capable eyes pore over it: you WILL still find booboos.

There must be a law in the universe. Curse on it. Curse! O_O

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Oh I agree - I'm always ashamed when the editor finds mistakes, and they are always there, but I'm sure that the editor can tell he difference between "i've done everything to polish this" to "i didn't even bother to run a spell check"

It still makes me cringe though when the mss comes back either rejected or covered in red pen....

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I hate it when you've been weeding out the repitions and then smack bang! after the umpteenth edit run you have the exact same word in two sentences one after the other. Why oh why?

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Oh yes.. *giggles* I'm SO guilty of that. The editor of Transgressions actually wrote next to one of my words, can't remember which one "you only get one of these per manuscript..." but she put a smiley face next to it...

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I am cringing at the realisation of a certain overuse of a certain word "grey" in a certain story. And that while I'm always the one who complains the quickest if writers hit me over the head with something: "yes I know it already!"

Ahem. *laughs*

I remeber once I got a polite comment a la "you have used the word - I am sure it was 'shocked' - 10 times already. Don't you think it is enough?"

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mylodon.livejournal.com

I will add my name to the list of 'guilty as charged'.

But I do always spell check.

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Oh, god, I do this all the time -- just found one in an edited ms. that my editor hadn't caught, either, the same word in two paragraphs, one right after the other. It seems to happen when I'm hot on a scene and just throwing the story out as fast as possible. I've learned to do a search for words that I'm particularly fond of, so at least they don't show up more than once per page.

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I am guilty of it when there is something that is especially important about a character. May that be a feature, a look or a mannerism. It's as if I felt compelled to keep shouting "look! look! this is I.M.P.O.R.T.A.N.T.!"

Ouch. :-D

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crawling-angel.livejournal.com

I'm just glad to know I'm in the gang, lol!

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Perhaps it's because it's a non-paying charity that people don't think that it matters as much, or something.

Or maybe you shouldn't have told people that there would be a proof-reader and an editor? While I agree with you that one should go through each text with a fine-toothed comb, it's rather insulting to imply people wouldn't put care into their work because it's "only" for charity. I see how much time some authors dedicate to this; even if their stories might not meet your high standards, there's no reason to question their motivation.

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I'm afraid I don't understand - all books have a proof reader and an editor. Any publisher that didn't supply one wouldn't be professional.

I'm just voicing my opinion - I can't think of any idea why people wouldn't do a spellcheck, and I'm not intending to offend anyone, but simply to point out that these things matter, no matter what kind of payment they get. These aren't "my high standards" they are the very least standards that any publisher would expect. I doubt any publisher, from New York to the smallest POD would be impressed by shoddy presentation. What I'm saying is that a story is more likely to be rejected for said slap-dash attitude, than one that's well-presented.

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See my comments below; I wasn't sarcastic about the high standards bit (hence the lack of " "), by the way. You do have high standards, and that's certainly a good thing. :)

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mroctober.livejournal.com

The notion that

erastes has standards that are not the norm for the industry is rather ridiculous. Unless you're talking about really, really small presses, it's always in the best interest of the book to ensure there are as few errors as possible.

And call me snobbish but honestly... there is a direct correlation between the track record of the authors involved and the pay a market offers - while it might be nice to believe otherwise, I doubt someone like Christopher Rice or Ethan Mordden are supplying original stories to a charity work released by a small press.

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Interesting interpretation of my comment... I wish Erastes' standards were the norm for the industry! Shelves in the bookshops wouldn't be filled with so many mediocre books then.

I simply stated that I disagree with the insinuation that people pay less attention to their work because said work is for charity. That's all. And that unexperienced authors might assume "we have a proof reader and an editor" means that they don't have to find somebody to proof read their work before submitting it. The posts on the yahoo group certainly could give that expression.

We all know what it's like, you read through your own work ten times and still you miss the sometimes most obvious mistakes. Doesn't mean somebody would go through her or his story less carefully because it's "just" for charity.

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Hang on, please. There have been a couple of submissions that did not show much care at all, and Erastes is, I believe, trying to gently point that out to the authors in question without singling them out personally. A writer actually refused to make a small change because s/he 'wasn't getting paid for it, after all."

The suggestion didn't apply to you, but believe me--there's a reason for it.

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Thanks, Lee. I didn't apply it to me (and not only because I haven't even submitted my story yet). I'm actually quite shocked to hear somebody would put less care into a job because it's for charity. Maybe I'm naive there, but if it's for a good cause, I feel one would put extra care into it...

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That's how I feel, too... whatever the venue, it's still got my name on it. Hope you get something in soon--the collection has reached the point of embarassment of riches. So many people have sent in such good stuff that it's now a choice between good and wonderful.

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You'll get it as soon as it's back from my editor (heh!) - and if the proceess becomes too complicated and time consuming, there's always the good old "heads or tails" method. ;)

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Hey,

Guess I can see what you're getting at. Tried to polish mine up but obviously was not up to scratch. Very dissapointing, but I guess better that I get knocked down a few times to start with (many many few times). Even managed to get it proof read. Still, live and learn.

Bah. This combined with my cold has managed to depress the fuck out of me.

Have volunteered to help out Alex in any way required though, so if I can be of help otherwise, just ask.

All the best,

tst

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This isn't aimed at anyone in particular sweetie, so don't feel despondent.

Unfortunately - as you know - rejection is the name of the game, specially when starting out, so you are not to give up, and that's an order.xxx

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I really do mean what I say when i say it is good for me. Same process I had to go through to be an architect, and it is only by critique (like alex gave me) that you can improve. Else you end up self satisfied and you write lets say... Harry Potter and the random Capslock of Doom?

Nah, just have a cold, have no voice (for which there is much rejoicing in the office) and have just been told that RIBA (royal institute of British Assholes... I mean architects) managed to 1)tell me I'd have no problem getting in, 2)lose my application 3) require me to fax them application again and 4)change their minds. I could not scream at them because I had no voice, so I went English-snotty on them instead.

So yes, was already mopey before I saw this. And you are right. Is there anywhere people can go to find really harsh critique type betas/editors? I worry sometimes about the competative nature of the game.

Sorry to ramble on. Hope Norfolk is not too snowy.

:)

me.

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"Only Allah is perfect." *ahem*

Echoing

marquesate, it sometimes doesn't matter how many times you proof-read something, there's always an error. When I worked for Which?, one of my jobs was inputting summaries of foreign consumer magazines onto a database on the (*gasp*) mainframe (look, we're talking the 1980s here, OK?). And then the articles would get printed out on fanfold paper, and I'd go over them with a red pen, and then they went round the rest of the library staff as well, and then they'd come back to me to have the corrections input - and I ALWAYS found at least one more typo.

But finding an occasional mistake in a book is one thing, finding dozens of errors that could have been easily fixed is another! Unfortunately, having done those proof-reading/copy-editing courses, my eye is now even more keenly attuned to such things, and now I can't help marking them in the margins as well. There was that book "Who Killed Albus Dumbledore?", which had so many errors I ended up having to put dozens of little post-it flags in - quite obvious that *all* they'd done was spell-check it on computer, but they hadn't had a human eye looking it over at all!

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Sorry to randomly butt in, but proofreading/editing courses? (Yes, I come from a scientific background - make housies). Tell me more! What do you learn? Do they train your mind to see mistakes?

Please excuse the ignorance, but as I am just starting out...

Thanks

Me.

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I did one for beginners and one advanced one at the London School of Publishing. On that page, there are buttons for both of them, the Editorial & Proofreading and the Advanced Editorial. Several hundred pounds each, alas (though work paid for half the first one). I have two certificates - first one was 92%, second 91%. *smug*

Unfortunately, as I've since discovered in two years out of work, you can't get a job doing it unless you have experience, and - of course! Catch-22! - you can't get the experience without a job.... *headdesk* So I do as much fanfic beta-reading on-screen as possible, and carry on writing rude notes in the margins of my books.

There are other courses out there as well - Chapterhouse is one company who advertise in the Grauniad's media section every Monday, for instance, and I think theirs is distance learning. I've seen one or two others, too.

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Money is not my biggest worry (watch me loose my nice job tomorrow)... time is more of the essence. I will have to see if I can work it around with work - they want me to pay more attention to detail, so maybe I can spin it that this will be marketable skill to the business group and also will help me proof drawings by teaching me to focus on the detail. It is (sadly) the trains from guildford to London that cause more hassle. Getting to the station at that time of night is a bitch!

You realise that now you have now alerted me as to your presence, and as to your fantastic scores, there is a fair chance that I will be stalking you begging for advice. On the other hand you could run far far away. I would suggest it.

Scan in some rude notes! Please! Would be tres amusing.

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Beta-reader to some of the better (IMHO) fanficcers at your service!

Not many of my notes are that rude, actually - I tend towards proofreading marks, corrections, and occasionally several exclamation points. But you could have a look at this entry and this one for my comments about WKAD. And this one has links to the photos I took of all the post-it flags!

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Hahahahahah!!!!!

I do that with techincal documents. I drive bosses mad. "But why out of the 93 beams on the pages IS THAT ONE DIFFERENT?". Then I get told to go and sit in my corner and take my happy pills because architects are not allowed to ask these sort of questions.

I may browse you LJ later, so if random comments appear, DO NOT BE AFRAID

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I don't see why architects shouldn't ask that sort of question! In fact, I'd have thought it was entirely appropriate.

I worked for a couple of years for American Bureau of Shipping (the US equivalent of Lloyd's List, certifying ships under construction as fit for purpose), and got very familiar with loads of shipbuilding terminology; I was rather good at one point with fire-fighting equipment in Spanish (which I do not speak), and used to know the address for the Lenin shipyard in Gdansk (where Lech Walenska used to work) off by heart!

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Apparently that is "the structural engineer's job" and therefore his liability. This makes me amused as am also a structural engineer. Yes, THAT much of a geek!

I know what you mean... my knoweldge of Maltese (where i used to practise) is reasonable, conversational. Take me onto a building site though, and I'll be able to tell you the techincal names for 3 circle arches, for setting out, for the hammer that is used to knock the formwork from the arches. Oh yes. So extremely random.

Though that sounds like fun! You must have seen a lot pass over your desk. Cool!

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Well, I was only a lowly clerk/typist, and most of the letters we did were form ones - we'd get a sheet of paper with "45" written on it, and two extra half-sentences, which meant "type form letter No.45 with these bits inserted in the appropriate gaps". But you got to see all the attachments and the letters they were replying to, and so on, and more while doing the filing. All very interesting. We had a multi-lingual shipbuilding dictionary!

Also, their 'house style' was to begin letters with 'Gentlemen:...' which always made me want to burst into Nanki-Poo's song from the Mikado.

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You might send your credentials to some of the smaller e-pubs and ask about doing freelance proofing. It won't pay much, but it's a line for the resume.

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I've tried a few - Erastes has been wonderful about sending me links now and then! - but so far have had no nibbles.

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Same here! I cannot read anything at all anymore without going into editing mode. It's depressing at times, because I can't enoy a text for its contents anymore, constantly fixed on its form. Itd eosn't matter if it's fiction, newspaper articles, academic papers, or assignments. I have the mental red pen out all the time. Ack!

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Hi Marq...

I'm adding you. It is Chris/Sarah. Whose story unfortunately got rejected. :(

x

Me

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Yes. And it doesn't help that the level of written English seems to have dropped markedly since I learned to read. But poor presentation does affect content. As (I think) Edwin Newman put it, sloppy writing reflects sloppy thinking. A writer may have a brilliant notion, but if s/he doesn't state it clearly, the reader has to guess.

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Let's not even talk about student's level of English. Just ... let's not. I have corkers in assignments that makes you want to rip your eyeballs out.

The other day I was reveiwing a book (scholarly) for a colleague and without realising started to edit and proofread it. Ooops! In red ink. Ouch (we're not allowed to use red in assignments, though). Fortunately she was thankful, because the second edition will have my changes in.

It's a very interesting thought, though, about the guessing by the reader and the clarity by the writer, because in the end, we can be as clear as we try to be and we still don't know what the reader sees because we don't know how their own personal context makes them reflect on what they read. Hmmm ...

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True - every reader has a different interpretation, and sometimes reviews will remark on something that I didn't even see in my own story. But it's better if the reader can tell you meant to say a character was hit by a lightning bolt rather than a lightning bug.

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"But it's better if the reader can tell you meant to say a character was hit by a lightning bolt rather than a lightning bug."

Hahahahaha! That made my day.

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angelabenedetti.livejournal.com

My heart goes out to you, seriously. :/ It's one thing to come across a handfull of typos and other oopses over the length of the manuscript, and yet another to wonder whether they even bothered to read the thing over after banging out the first draft. Grammar errors, usage errors, commas scattered on with a shaker-jar, clunky dialogue, chaotic points of view flinging themselves about the place, plot holes you could fly a 747 through -- ick. It seems there's at least as much, "Oh, the editor will fix that" on the pro side as there is, "Oh, my beta missed that" on the amateur side. [sporks]

I've thought about editing an anthology or two -- I've got some ideas for interesting themes -- but the thought of working through the submissions is daunting. Props to you.

Angie

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