Downbeat

[erastes]

I found a review today where someone had been so disappointed by then end of The Snow Queen that they felt like throwing their ereader against the wall.  The upside was that they felt that the story was beautifully written—which was very flattering.

I suppose i think that short stories are fair game;

the I DO! anthology  was in support of marriage equality, and should have a marriage theme, but we as a group didn’t feel it was necessary for all stories to be HEA. I was slightly nervous submitting something downbeat for it, but I was shouted down by all three others of the committee.

That notwithstanding, I want to say right now, that I don’t intend always to write Romance.  This will lose me some readers, I know, but I want to go further with gay historicals and my short stories, to explore themes and stories (and that’s the wonderful thing about gay historicals is that there are SO many stories yet to be explored) that aren’t going to end happily.  If my contract continues with Running Press—and I hope very much that it does, but that all depends on how well the line sells, of course—then I will continue to write romance for them, I’m contracted to do so in fact, but I do want to write other things that DON’T have a predictable ending, because for me, that’s hugely restricting and I feel myself wanting to kill everyone Hamlet/Blake-7-style, just because I’m forced to wrangle a HEA out of the book.

Perhaps I need to invent a new genre. :)

What do you think?  This reader said that the story should have come with a warning, but I think that’s daft—it’s so fandom—I was talking to Chris Smith about this yesterday, as she’s planning a big “genre exploration” thing on Meta Writer and I said that I get excerpts sent through to me for stories that have about ten genre descriptions, and that it seemed all so fandom to me.  With fanfic, some writers are pressured to put so many warnings on their stories: e.g. Sirius/Remus, m/m, blowjobs, anal sex, angst, blood, character death, mention of m/f, blah blah blah (I’m sure readers can come up with larger examples) that go on for lines and lines and really, by the time you’ve finished reading the warning, you might as well not bother to read the bloody story.  My benchmark for this is the film “Forrest Gump” – I remember seeing the trailer and being really impressed and blown away. “I must see this film!”  I said.  But when i DID go and see the film, I realised I’d ALREADY SEEN IT – because every key point was in the trailer.

When I buy an anthology of short stories—no matter what the theme—I expect to find stories of all kinds.  Happy, sad, uplifting, depressing, intriguing, baffling—Unless there’s ROMANCE emblazoned firmly on the cover, I don’t expect anything.  I know I’ve said this before because it’s the journey I like, and not being sure of the ending is part of what I like best about reading.

Ok – that was far far too long. But good—and cathartic—to write.

Talking of downbeat, I’ve just finished watching BENT on the DVD and feel a bit crushed.  Of course I didn’t expect it to end well, how could it?  But it was very hard to watch, which is how it should be.  I applaud Sherman hugely for doing the play in the first place, and really wish I’d seen the original version. Clive Owen isn’t my favourite actor, but I have to admit that he worked very well as Max, and Jagger was brilliant too.  I don’t think the script worked as well on the DVD as it would have done onstage, because it was a little self-conscious, and “play-like” – I would have preferred a more natural style, but it only seemed that way in certain sections.  I liked the way the Nazis were not over-stagey, prowling monsters.  Just men doing terrible things, without over-dramatics. It will stay with me forever, I think.  I should do a fuller review on Speak Its Name.

 

  </A< p>

Comments

[lusiology.livejournal.com]

This reader said that the story should have come with a warning

Prat. *shakes head*

I remember telling you I felt gutted when the chaps didn't get it on because they seemed so perfect together. I thought that there was potential for character B to deal with his ex wife. It was so... horribly sad because neither seemed capable of moving past their inner fear. But that's life and not everyone gets a HEA. I like fics that give me a strong emotional response and wouldn't stories be boring if they all ended the same.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

No no, I don't think the reader was a prat - I didn't want to sound like I was slamming the review - in the main it's a very good review - but as I said to Vash below, I just think that shorts shouldn't have to conform. And yes, not everyone gets a HEA - and that's part of what the antho was about, too.

[lusiology.livejournal.com]

Sorry if it came over a little harsh.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

No probs! *smooch*

[vashtan.livejournal.com]

I actually read the same review and I disagree with the points made there.

I think that Snow Queen was by far the best-written story in the anthology, and it was the only story that stayed with me for weeks afterwards. Most other stories in there were happily-fluffily-happy-happy stuff, and while nicely written for the /genre/, I'm not your typical romance reader, and I find the concept of "It's not HEA, so I HATE IT" vaguely insulting to the writer and their creativity.

Of course the reader has every right to say "I was disappointed becauser it made me feel low/I have RL troubles and can't deal with "negativity"" (or whatever), but that doesn't make the story bad. Quite the contrary. Any kind of deep, lingering emotion is a good thing to create in a writer. I enjoy making them cry as much as I enjoy making them laugh. It's all cathartic, and has to be. Good old Aristotle is right.

But /resenting/ a story/writer for making me cry feels to me totally silly and immature. It's almost as bad as "write the story as I WANT IT, BITCH", and that's simply not on. You want a specific type of story - write it on your own. Many writers started like that.

Gah. I'm ranting. Sorry.

At the end of the day, everybody's entitled to their opinion, and writers to their creative freedom.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

I didn't mean to sound like I was flaming the reviewer, because - as you say - everyone's entitled to their opinion, whatever it is, but I just found the concept of expecting short stories to be HEA. I am a rabid short story reader, have shelves of anthologies, was raised on Waugh and Saki, and I suppose that I've never considered a short story to need to conform to any expectations. The joy of writing a short is to be able to explore things that perhaps it would be much harder to do in a longer form, more literary forms, harder and darker concepts--I think this is one reason i enjoyed fanfic so much, because of that freedom it gave me. I know I never put any warnings on my fic, other than an age rating.

And thank you!

:)

[vashtan.livejournal.com]

This is what I just posted in The Phade (where that review was posted, too):

"The Snow Queen" does bring up some interesting questions; in the case of the anthology, I read the story very much as "once there is equality and people can't hold others' emotions for ransom, people will be much happier" - which I think made a strong, very important point in the debate. Apart from that, the story was, for me at least, by far the best-written in there, and I loved the complexity of the emotions that Erastes wriote about, but I'm strange, I can enjoy a feeling of melancholy, too.

For me, there was a sense of outrage about the ending, too, but it was an outrage against /reality/ rather than the writer or the story. BECAUSE the world is like that, this hurts, and it really punches where it hurts. I thought it was a brilliant counterpoint in an anthology that otherwise was mostly about happy-happy-fluffy-fluffy-cutsey-wootsey risk-free emotions (which is nice enough, but I like some conflict and depth in my reading). So it really added to the total, like chili rounds off dark chocolate.

But this taps into one of the main issues with the genre for me - as a writer - do I actually want to write "romance", where the ending is "safe" and "assured", where I'm not taking any risks with "my" readers? Or do I write what the /story/ demands rather than a reader demanding a HEA or HFN. For example, Special Forces could have ended after "Soldiers", with Dan saving Vadim from the KGB in some Michael Mann-style hyper-action with explosions in Moscow, and Vadim would never have been hurt/mentally screwed-up, would have have been a rapist, there would have been no torture, no split-ups, no war, no separation - if the writers wouldn't have gone "whatever, we do what the STORY demands". Otherwise Spcial Forces would have been about two ex-military guys picking curtains and squabbling about what's for desert.

Writers follow the story, not the readers; many writers force a HEA or a HFN to sell more. I've recently re-written an "unhappy ending" into a HFN (in that case, it was the right decision, I was way more pleased with the story), but I'd frankly despair if I couldn't follow the way the story points me to, for fear of getting slammed in reviews and getting readers irate (and never selling a piece of fiction again). I actually thought about not writing a single piece of m/m again and go completely mainstream and leave it at that because people told me "you'll never be able to sell your dark, nasty stuff" or "YOU HAVE TO HAVE HEA! YOU HAVE TO! YOU MUST FIND A HEA SOMEWHERE!". Uhm, no, I don't.

I'm really conflicted about the issue, so I commend Erastes for being so bold. I found the melancholy absoloutely beautiful and cathartic, and "Snow Queen" was the only story in the anthology that stayed with me ever since. Such a treasure, such a polished little gem. It's definitely one of those "wish I had written that" stories for me, and there are only a handful of those.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

Wow. Thank you!

[vashtan.livejournal.com]

I don't give warnings, period. But I grew up in original fiction, not fanfic. The concept of warning baffled me. I treat my readers as grown-ups. If they can read and find my stuff, they can handle what's in there.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

Actually, on a seperate note, I had a great (as in hilarious) review on Amazon for Standish along the lines that you mention. The reviewer, again, liked the writing, but got very very VERY angry about what the characters did - which was exactly what SHE didn't want them to do!!! She got so angry almost the entire review was in CAPSLOCK and I was almost entirely baffled, because...well... it wasn't her book! I almost felt like apologising that my characters behaved differently to the way that she thought they should act, but then I realised how very silly that would be!

You have all this to look forward to!

[vashtan.livejournal.com]

Oh, I published 5, and got some crazy-ass shit over it, but56 I have to say that romance readers and m/m readers are by far the craziest fans. Or rather, all the crazies I met I met through Special Forces, like people telling me HOW BAD ANF HORRIBLE I AM AS A WRITER AND A PERSON for not somehow, magically, reading her mind and delivering the ending of Sepcial Forces that SHE WANTED. AND HOW MUCH SHE HATED ME FOR IT and she threatened me to STOP READING.

Uhm. Yes. Stop reading, because you're clearly crazy, and I don't care if you stop reading my free stuff, because it's free, and it's clearly not for you, so step away from the computer and get a life.

They baffles me, those passive-aggressive little power games. What do these people think they are? Unless they pay me around £1,500/month upkeep, I am not writing for them. And even then I'd find a patron who is not batshit crazy.

[aigooism.livejournal.com]

I still think that one scene, where the had that "smex" scene without touching each other the most powerful thing I've ever seen on screen. The emotions there were just so raw, so intense!

[erastes.livejournal.com]

Gosh yes, absolutely. REally really amazing.

[bethbetter.livejournal.com]

Warnings for unhappy endings on books:
I would say no to that. Some of the best experiences I've had with novels/short stories have been ones that have left me sobbing. You go into it for the story. If you care about the characters, you want them to be happy at the end, naturally, but that isn't always going to happen. It can't, and it shouldn't.

to explore themes and stories (and that’s the wonderful thing about gay historicals is that there are SO many stories yet to be explored) that aren’t going to end happily

I agree - the range of stories that are yet to be told is enormous. I'm just itching to try my hand at bringing some of these people to life; and, in my view, it's unrealistic for all of their stories to end happily.

At any rate, I really hope this genre will eventually get the readership it deserves.

[vashtan.livejournal.com]

At any rate, I really hope this genre will eventually get the readership it deserves.

Amen to that. You speak sense.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

I agree, and yet the way that genre definitions are going, it seems taht eventually it's going to go that way, which is frankly horrifying:

Transgressions: multiple partners, infidelity (both marital and homosexual), bloodplay, torture, dubious consent.....

Nope. I don't think so... Where would it end?

Hee - I've just had a good idea for a (hopefully) amusing post...

[bethbetter.livejournal.com]

Ahh! *covers eyes* I'm only halfway through Transgressions! I needed a spoiler warning! *lol*

;D

[erastes.livejournal.com]

I look forward to hearing about your project when it gets going btw!!!

[bethbetter.livejournal.com]

I will remember that. ;)

[alex-beecroft.livejournal.com]

The thing is that I don't think any of us ever said 'this is an anthology of Romance stories'. It was an anthology in support of marriage equality, and one of the best ways you can support something is showing the terrible things that can result from not having it. I thought it was perfect for the theme, and that it makes the very important contribution of acknowledging that things are still bad out there, and still need to be fixed. The anthology needed it to be honest.

[anderyn.livejournal.com]

Rather on a tangent, here, and haven't read the comments, but your paragraph:

When I buy an anthology of short stories—no matter what the theme—I expect to find stories of all kinds. Happy, sad, uplifting, depressing, intriguing, baffling—Unless there’s ROMANCE emblazoned firmly on the cover, I don’t expect anything. I know I’ve said this before because it’s the journey I like, and not being sure of the ending is part of what I like best about reading.




You and I have such very different desires for our reading experiences. I like the journey too, but I want to be sure the ending is somewhere I'd like to be, if that makes any sense. I submerse myself into the story characters when the writing is good, and thus I want an ending that leaves me feeling happy about having spent that time as someone else. I thus prefer to leave on an up note.

There's nothing more infuriating to me than having read something and having the characters have wasted their time and effort for... nothing. (True story -- this comes from an early bad experience of reading a book in which the protagonist lost his family to pirates as a boy, grew up determined to avenge them, spent the book doing so, ended up with a family and a house and a white picket fence and the last page of the book had a mirror scene to the first page, in which the protag. came home to find THIS family killed by pirates... I was so unhappy about this that I resolved then and there that I would ALWAYS read the endings first and discover if there was a "happy" ending.)

Now, I have read things that have left major characters dead, or that have been more bittersweet than not in the final analysis, but as long as the characters and their struggles made a difference, meant something, upheld "truth justice and the American way", then I feel that the journey has been worth it to me.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

Yes - but then I wasn't including you, hun, because I know you read the end of books first.

If it's got "romance" on the cover, then I'll conform to the genre, but if it doesn't, then all bets are off.

[anderyn.livejournal.com]

Oh, I know you know I do. It's just interesting to me that two (and more) readers can have such divergent wants even when we both say that the journey is what's important. I expect your stuff to be whatever you want to write, and I will read it because I like you and I like your characters, even if I do get frustrated at times. :-)

[jl_merrow]

Mmm, I didn't like the ending to the Snow Queen, but I kind of thought that was the point. I loved the way you used the fairy tale, by the way, speaking as someone who's tried to use it in a story herself (and compared to you, failed dismally!)

[erastes.livejournal.com]

Thank you, that's a very nice thing of you to say!

:)

[angelabenedetti.livejournal.com]

Haven't read the story -- I got some birthday money and just ordered I Do a couple of days ago and it's on its way -- but just in general I think this is a matter of expectations.

I do in-house reviews for Torquere periodically, and a couple of times when an anthology contained a story which wasn't a romance (didn't have an HEA or HFN, or the characters ended up happy from their own POV but not together or in any kind of stable relationship, or a relationship wasn't even the point of the story) I've always deliberately stated in the review, "This is not a romance." Not everything TP publishes is a romance, but most of their stories are and that builds up an expectation in the readers, regardless of what labels might or might not be on any given book. Letting the readers (the ones who bother to read the in-house reviews, anyway, which I'll admit is probably a minority) know ahead of time that Story X is not a romance, but that I enjoyed it very much anyway for whatever non-spoilery reasons, lets them go in with no false expectations, which gives the story a chance to stand on its own merits.

I'll admit that I expected the stories in I Do to all be essentially romances. When you're talking about marriage and support and positive, and there's a heart and a rainbow and wedding rings on the cover, the first thing to pop into my mind is not, "You know, I'll bet this has a wide variety of story types in it, including at least one or two major downers." [wry smile] Now that I know that your story is indeed a major downer, I can begin that story without the false expectation of a romance, and I'm sure I'll enjoy it very much.

I like short stories too, and read a lot of anthologies and fiction magazines and such. If I'm reading a general collection, or a theme anthology where the theme isn't romance or some subgenre of romance, then I don't expect any particular kind of ending (or beginning, or middle) going in. That's fine; I like a variety of types of stories and hate being spoiled.

The trick is expectations, though. If I don't have a specific expectation, then I expect that anything is possible and I'm ready to enjoy whatever comes along. M/m is still largely a genre of either romance or erotica or erotic romance, though. You can like it or hate it, but the fact is that reader expectations are overwhelmingly going to be tilted toward romance -- with all the genre baggage which comes with it, including the HEA/HFN requirement. That doesn't mean you can't write anything else, obviously, but it does mean you need to manage those expectations.

In a case like this, you don't have to put spoilery warnings on your story. (I hate them too, and there've been times when I've wanted to smack large segments of fandom for this very reason.) Saying, "This story has a sad ending," or "This story doesn't have an HEA," isn't necessary. All that's needed is a note that "This story is not a romance." There you go. That frees you of the readers' expectations for genre-romance rules, but still leaves the question open as to exactly what the story is. It can even be romantic; it just isn't a romance by genre rules. You can do whatever you like, and the readers will go in knowing that anything might happen. No spoilers, but no false expectations either.

Too late now for I Do, obviously, but something to consider for next time.

Angie