POV shifts

[erastes]

Is shifting POV so evil? I just had a critique of chapter one of Transgressions (and I'm not complaining about the crit, it was damn good and professional and made me look at what I'm doing) and the critiquer didn't like the POV shifts.

How long do you stay in POV? Throughout an entire chapter? I COULDN'T do that, there have to be shifts, specially when David and Jon are together. matociquala said the other day that her editor had pointed out that she'd changed pov in the same paragraph, and I've not done that, but if you've got three people in a scene and it's vital that you show each persons view about the other, how else can you do it? I've changed it in paragraphs - not every one!! Just switched from David's POV to his father's. Oh hell, - under the cut.

"Master Caverly,." the newcomer said, his face unhappy and mistrustful "I am pleased to make thy acquaintance.," He bowed stiffly, removing his hat awkwardly then ramming it back onto his head. David looked enquiringly at his father, waiting for some indication as to who this young man could be, why he was calling him his 'brother.'


Jacob looked at his son for a long moment, and then around the unswept yard , taking in the pile of uncut timber. Suppressing a sigh, but unable to hide the annoyance in his eyes, he spoke again, his voice holding an edge of irritation he was struggling to contain. "Jonathan is come as my apprentice, David." He watched David's eyes fly open with shock and surprise, but he was not minded to explain his actions to his son at this time, especially in front of Master Graie. He led the way towards their cottage saying, "Come lad, I will show you your lodgings; David, you may join us for supper when you have finished."


David threw his axe down in temper when his father was out of sight. blah blah...blah blah...blah blah...blah blah...blah blah...blah blah...blah blah...

Thoughts? Comments? Help?

Comments

hm

[dubaiyan.livejournal.com]

The shift doesn't jar on me, as they're different paras.

Re: hm

[erastes.livejournal.com]

Thanks hun. I actually agree. I would find it very difficult to write "one chapter david" "one chapter jon" "one chapter tobias"

*heart sinks*

[dubaiyan.livejournal.com]

at the idea of having to rewrite vast and perfectly comprehensible sections of a story because of publishing trends.

Shifts...

[vashtan.livejournal.com]

.. are falling out of use, even in romatic fiction (the last stronghold).

It's a matter of taste, and sometice, publisher policy.

Special Forces shifts between two characters. All the time. I hope we pulled it off, but it's a bitch to do "correctly", meaning, effectively/efficiently (is that a word?)

Re: Shifts...

[erastes.livejournal.com]

This whole "falling out of use" thing is driving me insane. Omniescent narrator is out of fashion, pov shifts are out of fashion, show and tell is the fashion. All things that I do all the time. There's no hope for me, is there? *G*

GRRRRRR!!! I feel like railing at people and saying "there's a reason why classics are classics" Is Dan Brown going to be around in 100 years time.

rwday always says to me that anything is still possible as long as it's done with style. What I don't get is when people reject things out of hand.

But seriously, what do they expect, if they are falling out of use? How CAN you show two people reacting to each other - and when do they expect you to change POV?

Re: Shifts...

[rwday.livejournal.com]

How CAN you show two people reacting to each other - and when do they expect you to change POV?

I think that's why it was so prevalent in romance novels, because the authors wanted to show the reaction of both hero and heroine to the various scenes. I don't read romance much anymore, so I don't know how it's done these days in that genre.

[rwday.livejournal.com]

It didn't bother me when I read it the first time, it still doesn't. I tend to stay within one point of view through an entire section, then switch at either a section or chapter break, but that's just one way to do it. I've certainly read stories in various genres that had multiple points of view in the same section or chapter. Not all mouldy old books, either. It's still done.

Any "rule" can be broken if it's done well.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

Yes, but what's a section?

[rwday.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure I can define that. I mean, in a technical sense, it's a part of the story set apart by section breaks (#), or sometimes in printed books just by spaces. Sub-chapters, maybe?

[erastes.livejournal.com]

Hmmm. I still couldn't do it. I can't write a whole scene in Jacob's POV, not in this chapter. Oh well.

[rwday.livejournal.com]

Then don't! Like I said, I thought it read just fine as it is.

[eledhwenlin]

It's not evil perse, but I, for one, am kind of bothered by it. It does add a jar to the feel of the lecture. *is pedantic*

The shift you described above? Would make me grind me teeth, if I see it written. I had to suffer through all of it in "The Fall of the Kings" (and just when Ellen Kushner had won me all over with hardly doing it in Swordspoint!).

You don't have to write a whole chapter in one POV, but... do you call it a subchapter? (Chapter I. blabla *** blabla Chapter II - the blablas are "subchapters"). *is not very eloquent today*

I think it's more of a personal dislike. *shrug*

[erastes.livejournal.com]

So how would I handle that scene? I need to show Jacob's reaction to David from his POV and I'm not going to write an entire half chapter in Jacob's POV, as he's hardly ever on the screen.

[eledhwenlin]

I'd try to let David see his father's reaction: "he saw his father glance at the uncut timber, he noticed the faint notion of irritation in his father's voice, etc."

I'm not saying that this is a better way to do it - I just find it easier, when I don't have to jump POVs. But I think fandom might have spoiled me too much in this regard. ;)

[aunty_marion]

Jumping in with both left feet, I have just re-read the paragraphs above and I think that's what I'd prefer to see too... So, for me, I'd want something like this for the second paragraph:

Jacob looked at his son for a long moment, and then around the unswept yard, taking in the pile of uncut timber. David saw his father look around the unswept yard, taking in the pile of uncut timber. Suppressing a sigh, but unable to hide the annoyance in his eyes, he Jacob spoke again, his voice holding an edge of irritation he was seemed to be struggling to contain. "Jonathan is come as my apprentice, David." He watched David's eyes fly open with shock and surprise, but he was not minded to explain his actions to his son at this time, especially in front of Master Graie. David could see his father's reaction to his own shock and surprise, but knew Jacob would not explain his actions at this time. [New Para here!] He Jacob led the way towards their cottage saying, "Come lad, I will show you your lodgings; David, you may join us for supper when you have finished."

[erastes.livejournal.com]

I guess I could change it to be like that, he could have his own section later. It works!

Thanks!

[valarltd.livejournal.com]

I'd put a paragraph break between the newcomer doing the hat trick and David staring at his father. That was the only place I saw with a blatent PoV switch.

The rest seemed fine.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

It's probably not clear, but there are 3 seperate paras there *amends*

[irana.livejournal.com]

Personally, I think as a writer every bit of creative juice I had for a story would die without POV shift. It's hard to tell a story - for me anyway - without showing what's happening in the minds and hearts of the other characters.

The shift didn't bother me; it felt natural, as if I were watching the scene play out instead of reading it.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

I guess that's the thing. I do tend to write "scenes" and I think very ... actively, if you get me. I can see every movement, every reaction, so it's natural to me, too, to switch a little. I don't leap aboutlike a maniac, but I do do it quite a lot...

[kenazfiction.livejournal.com]

Out of fashion? Really?

It's a good thing I only write fanfic, then, because I change POV constantly. I didn't bat an eye at your excerpt-- It was comletely clear to me who was reacting to what, and why.

I'm a little miffed with this "out-of-fasion" shite. I thought the whole point of omniscient barration was to be able to show how all of your characters are relating/reacting to events/each other.

Oh, bother!

[kenazfiction.livejournal.com]

er... that would be Narration, not barration. Grr.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

*GIGGLES*

I love the idea of barration. I'm sure it's something quite FILTHY.

[janedavitt.livejournal.com]

I've been fanfic trained that shifting POV rapidly is bad and as an editor I would point it out. Usually, there're two main characters; swapping per chapter is fine. Swapping within a chapter, say every couple of thousand words, clearly delineated with some *** at a significant point, fine.


Dropping into character B's POV for a sentence in the middle of character A's turn...or even worse, a minor, unrelated chaarcter's -- I'd want it altering.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

This is why it surprised me, because my novel being edited at the moment, has head hopping from time to time, and none of the three editors have commented on it (except if by accident I mix paragraphs) but this was a critique on a critique site and literally it was the first time I'd even heard of it as "not being done"

Thanks, though, it's all thought provoking stuff!

[janedavitt.livejournal.com]

It's just reminded me; I did a post about this some months ago that you might find interesting:

http://janedavitt.livejournal.com/503862.html

[lyras.livejournal.com]

As others have said, I think changing POV is fine as long as you don't do it mid-para. I might find it off-putting if it happened a lot, though, because I kind of like being in the head of one character at a time. That's just a personal preference, however!

[semioticwarrior.livejournal.com]

One of my most favorite books ever, Fall of the Kings by Ellen Kushner and Delia Sherman (which *you* should read, if you haven't already, for it is slashy and delicious), shifts POV frequently, sometimes only spending a single paragraph in one person's POV. There are more POV characters than I can remember. It didn't bother me, and enriched my understanding of the world and the story.

*However*, each POV was very distinct and close to the bone, reflecting that character's thoughts, speech patterns, background, and way of looking at the world. Shifts were marked clearly with a symbol and many spaces between each one, and each POV section represented a complete scene.

I've heard some people describe what you're doing in your three paras as "head hopping," that is, changing POV within a scene. I've seen it done in published works before, but a lot of people find it distracting, and it seems to be out of fashion among a large number of editors.

Just a thought.

[themostepotente.livejournal.com]

Too many PoV shifts are jarring to me. For a fanfic, I'd stay in one character's head and only one throughout. For a novel, I'd stay in one character's head for the length of the chapter.

[shenya.livejournal.com]

That's something I've had to start wrestling with. Of the three short stories I've had accepted two came back from the editor with big pov problems.

The longer story (and, admittedly, more useful editor) the story got broken up into sections of pov... most often midscene. But I just couldn't afford to lose some of my switching. It did mean that I did have to decided on a single pov for the worst parts.

In the other story the editor didn't provide that option and I really really couldn't afford to drop the second pov entirely so I went through the whole thing and added more pov changes anywhere I could find... The editor didn't come back with another complaint so hopefully I managed to push it over into omniscient.

As for what I (and my beta) have been counting as pov shifts. If it's something that couldn't be seen by an outside observer then you are inside the person's head.

Looking at your paragraphs (and bearing in mind that I'm not authoritive on this or anything)

"Master Caverly,." the newcomer said, his face unhappy and mistrustful "I am pleased to make thy acquaintance.," He bowed stiffly, removing his hat awkwardly then ramming it back onto his head. David looked enquiringly at his father, waiting for some indication as to who this young man could be, why he was calling him his 'brother.'

In that section the part that I find dubious for pov is waiting for some indication as to who this young man could be, why he was calling him his 'brother.'


Jacob looked at his son for a long moment, and then around the unswept yard , taking in the pile of uncut timber. Suppressing a sigh, but unable to hide the annoyance in his eyes, he spoke again, his voice holding an edge of irritation he was struggling to contain. "Jonathan is come as my apprentice, David." He watched David's eyes fly open with shock and surprise, but he was not minded to explain his actions to his son at this time, especially in front of Master Graie. He led the way towards their cottage saying, "Come lad, I will show you your lodgings; David, you may join us for supper when you have finished."

In the first couple of sentances but unable to hide the annoyance is the only part that jumps out initially as being the father's pov. And that could be neutralised to failing or a similar word.

Then again with his voice holding an edge of irritation he was struggling to contain. Father's pov again. Should be easy fix if you wanted.

Ok. One or two other points but that paragraph is basically in Father's pov.


David threw his axe down in temper when his father was out of sight. blah blah...blah blah...blah blah...blah blah...blah blah...blah blah...blah blah...

That part is easy. People have left the scene so it has changed. If you were tending to mark pov changes (with *, # etc) then put that in before this paragraph if you want.



A rule of thumb I ended up using.. for if you aren't going omniscient. If you can't get at least a few paragraphs in a pov (including neutral) then you need to decide which pov it needs to be written into.

It's a horribly painful process. I know!

[fleurrochard]

I had no problem with that POV shift - I mean, I've read quite a lot of books where there were constant POV shifts in a scene and it doesn't bother me per se. *shrugs*

[iulia_linnea.livejournal.com]

Hell, I tend to favor one character's PoV per chapter/scene, but there are loads of times when I'll express each character's PoV in a two-character section, so that the reader knows what each of them is thinking, but the characters don't, because it underscores the confusion/conflict (and because I find that sort of thing enjoyable). Your example didn't really bother me at all because it's pretty clear who's thinking what, but I have a question.

In the first paragraph, the newcomer is speaking, and then you move into what David is doing. Shouldn't that be on its own line? (Or is it a British writing convention to keep the reactions of characters close to what they're reacting? Or, still further, am I missing the point that the paragraph in question is all about what David hears, so it makes perfect sense for the line about him looking to his father is in the same paragraph as what he overheard?)

I don't feel as though I'm being particularly helpful, but I do think that you should be true to your own style. Completely changing it in favor of being trendy seems like a bad idea. If you don't like what you're writing, or how you're writing it, your readers might not, either. (Says the chick who is not working with a professional editor. ;) )

[erastes.livejournal.com]

I clipped the first paragraph, which I probably shouldn't have done. It was a longish paragraph in David's POV watching the newcomer's (Jon's) arrival and listening to him talk.

And yes, you were helpful! thank you!

[maidenform.livejournal.com]

I'm used to the whole one POV a chapter thing, because that is how I was taught it was done usually. But it isn't horrible doing it the other way, either. *sounds dirty*

[erastes.livejournal.com]

I think that's the thing - I've never been taught - this kind of thing just ISN'T taught in English schools, or it certainly wasn't when I was there, and I went to a good one.

I shall blunder on regardless!

[copperbeech.livejournal.com]

I think few people truly do POV shifts within the same chapter well. That is not to say that it can't be done, but that it's truly art when pulled off. I find POV shifts very distracting in the style of most writers, particularly in fanfiction. In truth most fanfic writers aren't strong enough writers to be attempting such, so the added disjunct only weakens their overall attempt. That said I've seen it brilliantly done in original and fanfic. If you are going to shift POV in the same chapter it tends to flow best with section breaks. Cover the scene from one perspective, cut, then pick it up from the next perspective. You can cover a lot of ground in moving the plot, character development and in detailing external detail in that sort of subtle internal character movement.

The masters of POV shifts even within the same paragraph are Virginia Woolf and Gertrude Stein. Neil Gaiman pulls it off pretty well in places too. The three of them have the ability to bend language such that you cover the thoughts of several characters at once without ever realizing you jumped heads.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

In the main I use sections, I have to admit, but there are times when I find it unavoidable to stay in one place, specially in sex scenes.

[beauty-seeker.livejournal.com]

Like with all other writing devices, as long as you are creating the shifts deliberately and not accidentally, and they don't create undesired clunkiness, it's ok. If you read any contemporary fiction, you'll see lots of POV shifts. However, many of the ERWA traditionalists don't believe in POV shifts. They also want the story to be plot based and everything explained. If you like that, do it, if you don't stick to your instincts. If you're submitting a piece of prose to a traditionalist, don't do a lot of shifting because your piece won't get accepted. If you're submitting to a more experimental and modern outfit, you can play more.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

Thank you. I think that explains why I do it. it IS deliberate, and I don't do it hugely, just when it's essential. It was important for Jacob to show his irritation but in a stronger way.

I think the lesson of this has been yes, trust my instincts. It's working so far!

Thank you!

[bloodrebel333.livejournal.com]

Didn't bother me all that much.